Deliberate Grad School

22 Post author: Academian 04 October 2015 10:11AM

Among my friends interested in rationality, effective altruism, and existential risk reduction, I often hear: "If you want to have a real positive impact on the world, grad school is a waste of time. It's better to use deliberate practice to learn whatever you need instead of working within the confines of an institution."

While I'd agree that grad school will not make you do good for the world, if you're a self-driven person who can spend time in a PhD program deliberately acquiring skills and connections for making a positive difference, I think you can make grad school a highly productive path, perhaps more so than many alternatives. In this post, I want to share some advice that I've been repeating a lot lately for how to do this:

  1. Find a flexible program. PhD programs in mathematics, statistics, philosophy, and theoretical computer science tend to give you a great deal of free time and flexibility, provided you can pass the various qualifying exams without too much studying. By contrast, sciences like biology and chemistry can require time-consuming laboratory work that you can't always speed through by being clever.

     

  2. Choose high-impact topics to learn about. AI safety and existential risk reduction are my favorite examples, but there are others, and I won't spend more time here arguing their case. If you can't make your thesis directly about such a topic, choosing a related more popular topic can give you valuable personal connections, and you can still learn whatever you want during the spare time a flexible program will afford you.

     

  3. Teach classes. Grad programs that let you teach undergraduate tutorial classes provide a rare opportunity to practice engaging a non-captive audience. If you just want to work on general presentation skills, maybe you practice on your friends... but your friends already like you. If you want to learn to win over a crowd that isn't particularly interested in you, try teaching calculus! I've found this skill particularly useful when presenting AI safety research that isn't yet mainstream, which requires carefully stepping through arguments that are unfamiliar to the audience.

     

  4. Use your freedom to accomplish things. I used my spare time during my PhD program to cofound CFAR, the Center for Applied Rationality. Alumni of our workshops have gone on to do such awesome things as creating the Future of Life Institute and sourcing a $10MM donation from Elon Musk to fund AI safety research. I never would have had the flexibility to volunteer for weeks at a time if I'd been working at a typical 9-to-5 or a startup.

     

  5. Organize a graduate seminar. Organizing conferences is critical to getting the word out on important new research, and in fact, running a conference on AI safety in Puerto Rico is how FLI was able to bring so many researchers together on its Open Letter on AI Safety. It's also where Elon Musk made his donation. During grad school, you can get lots of practice organizing research events by running seminars for your fellow grad students. In fact, several of the organizers of the FLI conference were grad students.

     

  6. Get exposure to experts. A top 10 US school will have professors around that are world-experts on myriad topics, and you can attend departmental colloquia to expose yourself to the cutting edge of research in fields you're curious about. I regularly attended cognitive science and neuroscience colloquia during my PhD in mathematics, which gave me many perspectives that I found useful working at CFAR.

     

  7. Learn how productive researchers get their work done. Grad school surrounds you with researchers, and by getting exposed to how a variety of researchers do their thing, you can pick and choose from their methods and find what works best for you. For example, I learned from my advisor Bernd Sturmfels that, for me, quickly passing a draft back and forth with a coauthor can get a paper written much more quickly than agonizing about each revision before I share it.

     

  8. Remember you don't have to stay in academia. If you limit yourself to only doing research that will get you good post-doc offers, you might find you aren't able to focus on what seems highest impact (because often what makes a topic high impact is that it's important and neglected, and if a topic is neglected, it might not be trendy enough land you good post-doc). But since grad school is run by professors, becoming a professor is usually the most salient path forward for most grad students, and you might end up pressuring yourself to follow that standards of that path. When I graduated, I got my top choice of post-doc, but then I decided not to take it and to instead try earning to give as an algorithmic stock trader, and now I'm a research fellow at MIRI. In retrospect, I might have done more valuable work during my PhD itself if I'd decided in advance not to do a typical post-doc.

That's all I have for now. The main sentiment behind most of this, I think, is that you have to be deliberate to get the most out of a PhD program, rather than passively expecting it to make you into anything in particular. Grad school still isn't for everyone, and far from it. But if you were seriously considering it at some point, and "do something more useful" felt like a compelling reason not to go, be sure to first consider the most useful version of grad that you could reliably make for yourself... and then decide whether or not to do it.

Please email me (lastname@thisdomain.com) if you have more ideas for getting the most out of grad school!

Comments (153)

Comment author: [deleted] 06 October 2015 11:56:56PM 6 points [-]

PhD programs in mathematics, statistics, philosophy, and theoretical computer science tend to give you a great deal of free time and flexibility, provided you can pass the various qualifying exams without too much studying.

Bolding the parts to which I object.

I have never seen anyone in a rigorous postgraduate program who had a lot of free time and could pass their quals without large amounts of studying.

Of course, I could just be, like magic, on the lower part of the intelligence curve for graduate school, but given that my actual measured IQ numbers are pretty in-the-middle for scientific academia (I won't tell what they are, though), and given that almost everyone else says they have little free time and have to study hard in graduate school, I'm inclined to believe the bolded phrases only accurately describe a narrow slice of lucky individuals.

Comment author: jsteinhardt 12 October 2015 02:05:12AM 4 points [-]

Are you talking about free time pre- or post-quals? And do you include work that goes towards your thesis but that you "have" to do (e.g. for a conference or internal deadline) as free time or non-free time?

My experience (and I would guess many of my labmates, though I don't know for sure) is that quals are really easy to pass, you spend at most 2 weeks of your life studying for them, and otherwise you're just doing research plus a few classes. Stanford is an outlier in that it has particularly few class requirements compared to other top CS departments, but it seemed like MIT grad students also often started doing research fairly early on, from my perspective as an undergrad there.

Depending on your funding situation, your actual time spent doing research may be more or less beholden to what grants your advisor has to do work towards. I'm on a fellowship and so can do whatever I want, the only consequences being that if my research after 5 years is uninteresting then I'll have trouble getting academic jobs.

Comment author: [deleted] 12 October 2015 02:25:44AM 4 points [-]

I've only gotten up to doing an MSc (currently volunteering for Vikash Masinghka in my Copious Free Time), but I do know a hell of a lot of academics.

From my (second-hand) knowledge, easy quals are an artifact of something very like economic privilege: your school is very prestigious and doesn't need to cull its grad-student herds as much as others, so quals are allowed to be easy. In other places, quals are used to evict many grad-students from their PhD program because resources are more scarce.

but it seemed like MIT grad students also often started doing research fairly early on, from my perspective as an undergrad there.

I don't know anywhere where grad-students don't start doing research as early as possible. Do some programs really involve whole years of just classes?

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 12 October 2015 03:27:33AM *  5 points [-]

A lot of it is historical accidents + inertia. When I was a greenhorn at UCLA, CS quals (the WQE, aka "the wookie") were two 5 hour tests (on two consecutive days) covering all of CS (e.g. networking, databases, AI, theory, systems, everything). They were not easy at all. At some point it was realized this was stupid, and neither teaches nor prepares one for research, and washes out good people. So it was changed.

UCLA math quals are .. formidable.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 October 2015 11:48:14PM 2 points [-]

That sounds a lot like Technion's course exams, which were usually designed to be two "levels" harder than the entire rest of the course, and could only really be studied for by obtaining graded copies of old exams.

Comment author: jsteinhardt 12 October 2015 02:42:23AM 4 points [-]

In Berkeley CS there are enough course requirements that I don't think people do serious research until their second year (although I'm sure they do some preliminary reading / thinking in year one).

Comment author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2015 02:32:51AM *  2 points [-]

Absolutely. It's a function of grant money. MIT has more grant money than anyplace else on Earth, so it's easy to start grad students on research projects. At the U. of Buffalo, there were only 2 professors in my department who had grants, so getting onto someone's project was hard, and anyway you were taking 4 classes a semester and TAing at least one for the first 2 years, while studying for the qualifiers. I don't know anything about this "free time" OP talks about.

Few students did research before their third year, after passing their qualifiers at the end of the second. A prof wouldn't really be interested in a student who hadn't passed the qualifiers. That's why the average CS PhD there took 8 years of grad school.

You could do your own research, of course. I did that, but I eventually had to throw it all out, because I couldn't get anyone interested enough in it to be my advisor.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2015 02:39:19AM *  1 point [-]

At the U. of Buffalo, just taking the quals took at least a week. They were, if I recall, 7 exams, 5 taking half a day each and 2 24-hour exams.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2015 02:42:16AM *  2 points [-]

Agree. The lab work in CS is also large, though it comes in huge blocks rather than on a steady schedule.

Comment author: Transfuturist 07 October 2015 01:45:06AM 0 points [-]

Quals are the GRE, right?

Comment author: [deleted] 07 October 2015 02:54:54AM 2 points [-]
Comment author: Transfuturist 07 October 2015 03:57:08AM 0 points [-]

8(

Comment author: Benito 04 October 2015 07:53:38PM 6 points [-]

It's striking how much value there is in academia that I didn't notice, and that a base-level rational person would've noticed if they'd asked "what are the main blind spots of the rationality community, and how can I steelman the opposing positions?". Not a good sign about me, certainly.

Also, is that your actual email address?

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 17 October 2015 03:24:34PM *  6 points [-]

I have been talking about this very issue for ages here on LW. "Rationalists" (the tribe, not the ideal platonic type) share a ton of EY's biases, including anti-academic sentiment.

Comment author: Benito 17 October 2015 06:04:45PM 0 points [-]

Question: Did you make a post of this nature before?

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 21 October 2015 04:13:55PM 2 points [-]

I don't write top level posts, but I took issue w/ Luke taking a shit on academic philosophy, for instance.

Comment author: Benito 21 October 2015 08:01:53PM 0 points [-]

I don't see that the above post refutes any arguments Luke made about academic philosophy. What were the basics of your disagreements with his arguments?

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 21 October 2015 09:07:55PM *  3 points [-]

Luke is not qualified to shit on academic philosophy. He simply doesn't have the background or the overview. And it's a terrible idea for social reasons, it just makes people not take LW seriously. I would be happy to accept critiques of the philosophy establishment from e.g. Clark Glymour, not from Luke. There is a ton of value in philosophy you are leaving on the table if you shit on philosophy.

My other big annoyance is the "LW Bayesians" (who are similarly not qualified generally to have strong opinions about these issues, and instead should read stats/ML literature). Although I should say very sophisticated stats folks occasionally post here (but I don't count them among the "LW Bayesians" number, as they understand issues with Bayes very well).

Comment author: SanguineEmpiricist 08 November 2015 12:43:48AM 1 point [-]

Love this, Luke is actually well read so maybe it's a bit tough on him, but the casual dismissal and elitist posturing is pretty dumb and cringe inducing. Philosophy is underrated around these parts.

Comment author: Benito 22 October 2015 05:43:55AM *  1 point [-]

Could you provide an object level counter argument please? A strong one would give me a lot more credence that Luke's work was not an accurate portrayal of academic philosophy.

(Three would be preferred)

(Object level might look like "philosophers are making useful progress by metric X" or "I expect philosophers' work to be very useful in area of science a because b" or "doing a PhD in philosophy has lots of value in the world for reasons p, q and r")

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 22 October 2015 02:44:19PM *  2 points [-]

I am not very interested in convincing you.

You said:

It's striking how much value there is in academia that I didn't notice

So look for the value! Don't write the entire field off, lots of smart people there, probably you are missing something.


But for example quite a few very smart causal inference people are in philosophy. That conference on decision theory MIRI went to in Cambridge was hosted by philosophers. Some philosophers deal with very hard problems that do not map onto empiricism very well, etc.

Comment author: pragmatist 22 October 2015 03:26:06PM *  2 points [-]

I think Luke will agree with you on what you say here, though. I remember commenting on one of his posts that was critical of philosophy, saying that his arguments didn't really apply to the area of philosophy I'm involved in (technical philosophy of science). Luke's response was essentially, "I agree. I'm not talking about philosophy of science." I think he'd probably say the same about philosophical work on decision theory and causal inference.

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 22 October 2015 03:44:54PM *  4 points [-]

Isn't that motte/bailey: "philosophy, a diseased discipline" is not a very discriminating title. The best line of his post is this:

I have an efficient filter for skipping past the 95% of philosophy that isn't useful to me.

And this is definitely ok!


But again, I am not super interested in arguing with people about whether philosophy is worthwhile. I have better things to do. I was only pointing out in response to the OP that I have been harping on LW's silly anti-academic sentiment for ages, that's all.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 03 November 2015 02:18:20PM 0 points [-]

He could have saved himself some trouble by writing "Philosophy: a Partly Diseased Disciplien" or "Philosophy: a Bit of a Curate's Egg".

Comment author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2015 03:21:11PM *  0 points [-]

How about:

  • a link to the article by Luke that you're talking about
  • the names of some good current philosophy journals
Comment author: gjm 22 October 2015 04:49:12PM 1 point [-]

I think the article Ilya has in mind is this one: Philosophy, a diseased discipline.

Comment author: pragmatist 22 October 2015 03:27:30PM *  1 point [-]

I can help with the second request:

The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science

Comment author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2015 02:21:10AM *  0 points [-]

Someone who's studied stats and ML is much more qualified to talk about philosophy than someone who's studied academic philosophy.

My comment may be irrelevant. You didn't provide a link to Luke's article, so I don't have the context, and am only guessing at your meaning.

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 22 October 2015 03:23:14AM 0 points [-]

^ this is what I am talking about. For some reason I think Luke has a bachelor's degree with a major in cognitive science (but I don't remember exactly).

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 22 October 2015 03:00:50PM 1 point [-]

I was under the impression that he studied psychology, but dropped out before graduating. (An old interview has him mentioning that "I studied psychology in university but quickly found that I learn better and faster as an autodidact", and back when he was still employed at MIRI, his profile on the staff page didn't mention any degree whereas it did for almost everyone else.)

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 23 October 2015 12:48:54AM *  1 point [-]

Just so we are clear -- I am not really attacking Luke. I met him, we talked on skype, etc. He's a sensible dude. I am just not weighing his opinion of philosophy very highly. "Mixture of experts" and all that.

Comment author: [deleted] 06 October 2015 11:53:25PM 4 points [-]

It's striking how much value there is in academia that I didn't notice, and that a base-level rational person would've noticed if they'd asked "what are the main blind spots of the rationality community, and how can I steelman the opposing positions?".

Well, to bloat my own ego, one of my most consistently banged-on themes has been, "HEY ACADEMIA BASICALLY TELLS US THINGS FOR FREE!"

Comment author: [deleted] 14 October 2015 05:55:59PM 0 points [-]

Well, not for free exactly. Textbooks and the internet can tell us most of the same things, for much cheaper :). (I'm not arguing against academia in general, but I do think that's a weak argument for it).

Comment author: [deleted] 16 October 2015 11:46:59PM 2 points [-]

I had actually meant that academia provides research to the public more-or-less "for free", in the sense of "free at point of use".

Textbooks and the internet are not actually of much use, as well, when most of the knowledge for how they actually go together is tribal-knowledge among university professors, and never gets written down for non-student self-studiers.

Comment author: [deleted] 17 October 2015 05:34:56PM *  1 point [-]

I'm not convinced that "free at point of use" is a useful concept - it's more useful to figure out when and where costs are snuck in, and then decide if the price is worth it and if the right people are paying for it.

In terms of self learning, that hasn't been my experience as an autodidact. A course catalog and a good textbook are more than enough to provide context for learning, with google filling in the gaps.

Comment author: [deleted] 22 October 2015 12:39:40PM 7 points [-]

I'm not convinced that "free at point of use" is a useful concept - it's more useful to figure out when and where costs are snuck in, and then decide if the price is worth it and if the right people are paying for it.

Go ahead and object that "nothing is really free", but "free at point of use", once we're being specific, is useful. It means, "This service is accessible without paying up-front, because the costs are being paid elsewhere." Of course there are still costs to be paid, but there are a couple of whole fields of study devoted to finding the most socially desirable ways of paying them.

So for instance, we have reason to believe that if, on top of the existing journal-subscription-and-paywall system, we added additional up-front fees for reading academic research papers, this would raise the costs of scientific research, in terms of dollars and labor-hours spent to obtain the outputs we care about.

Also, please, not every LW comment necessitates conceptual nitpicking. If I start with "academia publishes a lot of useful research which can be obtained and read for free by people who know how to do literature searches", please do not respond with, "Well what is free anyway? Shouldn't we digress into the entire field of welfare economics?"

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 22 October 2015 03:14:14PM 1 point [-]

Upvoted for the last paragraph.

Comment author: [deleted] 24 October 2015 04:51:48PM 0 points [-]

Go ahead and object that "nothing is really free", but "free at point of use", once we're being specific, is useful. It means, "This service is accessible without paying up-front, because the costs are being paid elsewhere."

Fair point.

Also, please, not every LW comment necessitates conceptual nitpicking.

It wasn't a "gotcha, you're technically wrong" comment. It was central to the point we're arguing, which is that academia is a net benefit. If the comment was meant in a tongue in cheek "I'm not actually making a real argument for academia, just saying something silly" way, it wasn't clear to me.

If you were actually advancing an argument that academia is useful because it publishes research, you need to prove that the research does enough good to justify the costs it extracts from it's students. It is a meta point, but it's not an irrelevant nitpick - it's central to you're argument.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 October 2015 08:52:31PM 1 point [-]

If you were actually advancing an argument that academia is useful because it publishes research, you need to prove that the research does enough good to justify the costs it extracts from it's students.

Ok, there's a confusion here I feel a need to correct: research is almost entirely not funded by students. Teaching is funded by students. Administration is (gratuitously and copiously, beyond anything necessary) funded by students. Teaching and administration are also often funded by endowments and state block grants. Research is (by and large) funded by research grants, and in fact, the level of research output required to justify each dollar of grant has gone solidly up.

Comment author: ChristianKl 14 October 2015 10:08:56PM 1 point [-]

The word textbook implies an adademic publisher.

Comment author: [deleted] 15 October 2015 02:35:48AM 0 points [-]

Well, if you're including "anyone who sells things to schools" in academia- then yes, my argument doesn't really make much sense.

But, for the sake of steel-manning, let's pretend that instead of meaning that, I meant academia as the broad collection of things typically associated with it - formal schooling, tenure, teachers, students, classes, etc. Even if you include textbooks as a NARROW part of academia, the point is that you can forgo all that other stuff and JUST take the textbooks, and still be told basically the same things.

Comment author: interstice 05 October 2015 05:56:44PM 1 point [-]

I think the idea is that you're supposed to deduce the last name and domain name from identifying details in the post.

Comment author: Curiouskid 07 October 2015 05:23:54AM *  5 points [-]

I have some questions about step 1 (find a flexible program):

My understanding is that there are two sources of inflexibility for PhD programs: A. Requirements for your funding source (e.g. TA-ing) and B. Vague requirements of the program (e.g. publish X papers). I'm excluding Quals, since you just have to pass a test and then you're done.

Elsewhere in the comments, someone wrote:

"Grad school is free. At most good PhD programs in the US, if you get in then they will offer you funding which covers tuition and pays you a stipend on the order of $25K per year. In return, you may have to do some work as a TA or in a professor's lab."

So, there are two types of jobs you can have to fund your PhD (TA-ing and being a RA/Research Assistant to a professor). How time-consuming is TA-ing generally? I imagine it varies based on the school/class. How do you find a TA-ing gig that isn't time consuming? Can you generally TA during your entire PhD? I think I vaguely recall a university that only would let you TA for so many semesters.

You could also fund your PhD by getting a fellowship. Philip Guo has written about applying for the NSF, NDSEG, Hertz fellowships. I'm poorly calibrated about how hard it is to get one of these fellowships. I've also heard that certain schools will offer fellowships to some of their students. How hard are these to get relative to the fellowships mentioned above? There are ~33K science PhDs awarded each year. I wonder what distinguishes the ~4% who get fellowships from the median science PhD student.

Let's say that you were really frugal and/or financially independent already. My impression is that many schools would still require you to TA in order to have your tuition waved.

Let’s assume you have the financial aspect of your PhD taken care of (e.g. You have an easy/enjoyable TA job). What other requirements are there other than passing Quals? Could I read interesting books indefinitely until I find something interesting to publish?

I'd like to believe that achieving step 1 is possible, but as eli_sennesh pointed out, this is hard.

Comment author: EHeller 08 October 2015 03:48:42AM 4 points [-]

How hard your quals are depends on how well you know your field. I went to a top 5 physics program, and everyone passed their qualifying exams, roughly half of whom opted to take the qual their first year of grad school. Obviously, we weren't randomly selected though.

Fellowships are a crapshoot that depend on a lot of factors outside your control, but getting funding is generally pretty easy in the sciences. When you work as an "RA" you are basically just doing your thesis research. TAing can be time consuming, but literally no one cares if you do it poorly, so it's not high pressure.

But this is a red flag:

Let’s assume you have the financial aspect of your PhD taken care of (e.g. You have an easy/enjoyable TA job). What other requirements are there other than passing Quals? Could I read interesting books indefinitely until I find something interesting to publish?

That isn't how research works, at least in the sciences. Research is generally 1% "big idea" and 99% slowly grinding it out to see if it works. Your adviser, if he/she is any good, will help you find a big idea that you can make some progress on and you'll be grinding it out every week and meeting with your adviser or other collaborators if you've gotten stuck.

That said, a bad adviser probably won't pay any attention to you. So you can do whatever you want for about 7 years until people realize you've made no progress and the wheels come off the bus (at which point they'll probably hand you a masters degree and send you on your way).

Comment author: gjm 12 October 2015 11:24:36AM 4 points [-]

literally no one cares if you do [TAing] poorly

I have heard rumours that students are actually people, and that they care about the quality of the teaching they receive.

Comment author: EHeller 12 October 2015 07:04:35PM 3 points [-]

You'd think so, but office hours and TA sections without attendance grades are very sparsely attended.

Comment author: anna_macdonald 17 October 2015 02:08:52AM 2 points [-]

When I was in college, I almost never went to office hours or TA hours... except for one particular class, where the professor was a probably-brilliant guy who was completely incapable of giving a straight explanation or answer to anything. TA hours were packed full; most of the class went, and the TA explained all the stuff the teacher hadn't.

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 14 October 2015 04:45:59PM 2 points [-]

Not in my class.

Comment author: Gram_Stone 12 October 2015 03:47:30AM 1 point [-]

That said, a bad adviser probably won't pay any attention to you. So you can do whatever you want for about 7 years until people realize you've made no progress and the wheels come off the bus (at which point they'll probably hand you a masters degree and send you on your way).

Do you incur debt if this happens, due to the cost of stipends and tuition waivers to the institution?

Comment author: Romashka 17 October 2015 07:17:15AM 3 points [-]

In the Ukrainian academy of sciences, if your institution doesn't let you go in peace, you pay back your stipend; if you finished your PhD program without defending, you have to either work for 3 years in your department or in another governmental institution (doesn't matter which, just not for a private business), or pay back the stipend. Not Fun:)

Comment author: Vika 07 October 2015 10:30:30PM 4 points [-]

How much TAing is allowed or required depends on your field and department. I'm in a statistics department that expects PhD students to TA every semester (except their first and final year). It has taken me some effort to weasel out of around half of the teaching appointments, since I find teaching (especially grading) quite time-consuming, while industry internships both pay better and generate research experience. On the other hand, people I know from the CS department only have to teach 1-2 semesters during their entire PhD.

Comment author: moridinamael 05 October 2015 03:23:46PM *  5 points [-]

I am of the opinion that if you do grad school and you don't attach yourself to a powerful and wise mentor in the form of your academic adviser, you're doing it wrong. Mentorship is a highly underrated phenomenon among rationalists.

I mean, if you're ~22, you really don't know what the hell you're doing. That's why you're going to grad school, basically. To get some further direction in how to cultivate your professional career.

If you happen to have access to an adviser who won a Nobel or whose adviser won a Nobel, they would make a good choice. The implicit skills involved in doing great work are sometimes passed down this way. The adviser won't even necessarily know which of their habits are the good ones. I'm thinking specifically of a professor I knew whose adviser was a Nobel laureate, who would take his students out for coffee almost every day. They would casually talk shop while getting coffee. This professor's students were generally well above average in their research accomplishments.

Comment author: satt 07 October 2015 04:15:05AM 5 points [-]

I mostly agree, but would add two caveats.

Relying too much on getting one very specific advisor is risky. Most advisors are middle-aged (or outright old), especially those with Nobel Prizes, and they do sometimes die or move away with little notice. If that happens, universities can be very bad about finding replacements (let alone comparably brilliant replacements) for any students cast adrift.

Also, an adviser's personality & schedule are as important as their research skills: a Nobel Prize winner who's usually away giving speeches, and is a raging, neglectful arsehole when they are around, is likely to be more of a hindrance than a help in getting a PhD. Put like that, what I just wrote is obvious, but I can imagine it being the kind of thing potential applicants would overlook.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2015 02:30:01AM *  2 points [-]

Yes... but is it about mentorship, or connections? Anyway, one problem is that powerful and wise mentors don't have anything to say to you until you've got a dissertation topic, and the curriculum is structured so that this seldom happens before someone's third year in grad school.

My experience at the U. of Buffalo was that there were 2 kinds of student-advisor relationships: The exploitative kind, where the "mentor" gets the student to do gruntwork on the advisor's project, and write a whole bunch of code for him, and keeps them around, ungraduated, as long as they can; and the pro-forma kind, where the advisor cheers the student on in whatever the student is doing, then puts his or her name on the resulting papers. The idea that a dissertation advisor teaches something did not correspond to the reality I observed.

Comment author: moridinamael 22 October 2015 01:57:40PM *  4 points [-]

Yeah, it's complicated.

"A friend" (cough) had an exploitative advisor. But this friend also learned a tremendous amount doing all the gruntwork, writing the code, writing the papers. Yes, "my friend" did take over six years to graduate, but "my friend" was pushed harder than he'd ever been pushed in his life and probably harder than he'll ever be pushed again, and he learned the limits of his own abilities, which were far greater than he would have believed otherwise. Overall, he's glad he did his PhD even if there was a lot of suffering and struggle.

An (actual) close friend of mine had an advisor who had himself been a student of a Nobel laureate. The relationship was primarily of the second type that you describe - lots of cheerleading and encouragement. But there was certainly an element of discernment which I think was passed along. I remember distinctly that my friend was extremely skeptical that his paper would be accepted by Science (the journal) but the advisor instructed him to submit it; the paper was accepted. So now my friend has a publication in Science basically just because his advisor had the judgement to know when something is important enough to submit to Science. This may seem like a small thing, but having a Science publication is not a small thing, I think.

And I realize this is all highly anecdotal, but I can definitely attest that I have neither seen nor experienced any kind of mentoring relationship similar to either of the above since I left Academia.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 October 2015 09:19:22PM *  2 points [-]

My experience having an advisor wasn't quite either of those.

I was certainly working on his research, but he wasn't trying to keep me around as long as possible. He also didn't want me gone as soon as possible.

He seemed to have something he was trying to teach me, and I dare say I learned a few things, but I'm still not sure if they were the things he intended me to learn. He would often directly articulate things, but they weren't learnable or understandable principles, just sort of... mottoes. Things like, "Look. At. The data."

The whole thing taught me the most about how many ways there are for noise and human error to creep into an experiment, and how very much prior knowledge and information you actually need just to be sure that your data is at all real in the first place. It also combined with my exposure to LW-y stuff to spark an interest in machine learning and statistics. Oh, and I learned a lot about the importance of using very nice Latex to make papers look properly professional.

Adviser's mission accomplished? Fuck if I know, but I did still manage to pass a thesis defense (on what I think was sheer politics: my manuscript was quite unpolished, but nobody wanted to speak the impolitic fact that I should have had more guidance in certain aspects before submitting, so I passed with an entirely acceptable grade nonetheless).

Comment author: fowlertm 04 October 2015 04:07:43PM 4 points [-]

I think there'd be value in just listing graduate programs in philosophy, economics, etc., by how relevant the research already being done there is to x-risk, AI safety, or rationality. Or by whether or not they contain faculty interested in those topics.

For example, if I were looking to enter a philosophy graduate program it might take me quite some time to realize that Carnegie Melon probably has the best program for people interested in LW-style reasoning about something like epistemology.

Comment author: Vika 07 October 2015 10:34:49PM *  3 points [-]

I think it depends more on specific advisors than on the university. If you're interested in doing AI safety research in grad school, getting in touch with professors who got FLI grants might be a good idea.

Comment author: iarwain1 04 October 2015 09:08:31PM 2 points [-]

Why do you say Carnegie Mellon? I'm assuming it's because they have the Center for Formal Epistemology and a very nice-looking degree program in Logic, Computation and Methodology. But don't some other universities have comparable programs?

Do you have direct experience with the Carnegie Mellon program? At one point I was seriously considering going there because of the logic & computation degree, and I might still consider it at some point in the future.

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 04 October 2015 11:48:16PM *  4 points [-]

Confirmed, re: CMU phil. Email me for details (ilyas at cs.jhu.edu), I know a few people there. I think Katja Grace went there at one point (?)

Comment author: fowlertm 12 October 2015 03:56:48PM 1 point [-]

I mentioned CMU for the reasons you've stated and because Lukeprog endorsed their program once (no idea what evidence he had that I don't).

I have also spoken to Katja Grace about it, and there is evidently a bit of interest in LW themes among the students there.

I'm unaware of other programs of a similar caliber, though there are bound to be some. If anyone knows of any, by all means list them, that was the point of my original comment.

Comment author: mkf 04 October 2015 02:13:03PM 3 points [-]

PhD programs in mathematics, statistics, philosophy, and theoretical computer science tend to give you a great deal of free time and flexibility, provided you can pass the various qualifying exams without too much studying.

Economics also has good opinion among the EA/rationality crowd: - http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/if-you-get-phd-get-economics-phd.html - https://80000hours.org/career-guide/top-careers/profiles/economics-phd/ - and posts by Bryan Caplan (links under the first link)

Comment author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2015 02:54:46AM 2 points [-]

Teach classes.

Yeah, this was much more valuable than I realized at the time. I think it's a better way to learn to speak than most, because you have something to communicate, and you get to measure later on how well you communicated it. You don't have time to worry about being nervous.

Comment author: gjm 14 October 2015 12:10:23PM 2 points [-]

email me (lastname@thisdomain.com)

That makes good sense over on your own domain whence this is cross-posted, but not here on LW. Here you might either want to describe your email address differently, or encourage people to PM you using the LW message system instead of emailing you.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2015 02:56:41AM 0 points [-]

Is Academician's identity supposed to be secret?

Comment author: gjm 22 October 2015 09:17:34AM 1 point [-]

No; there's a link from his profile page to his website, where his name is in plain sight.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2015 07:06:26PM 0 points [-]

If there is, it's well-hidden.

Comment author: Vaniver 22 October 2015 09:04:40PM *  2 points [-]

In the top-right section of the userpage, where the "send message" button is, is the username, karma, karma in last 30 days, location, and website link.

Comment author: satt 07 October 2015 01:47:43AM 2 points [-]

Me previously on the topic of getting a PhD.

Comment author: 27chaos 04 October 2015 05:44:55PM 2 points [-]

Is there any way to do these things without paying a large pricetag? Could you just lurk around campus or something? Only half-joking here.

be sure to first consider the most useful version of grad that you could reliably make for yourself... and then decide whether or not to do it.

Planning fallacy is going to eat you alive if you use this technique.

Comment author: Unnamed 05 October 2015 09:43:50PM 5 points [-]

Grad school is free. At most good PhD programs in the US, if you get in then they will offer you funding which covers tuition and pays you a stipend on the order of $25K per year. In return, you may have to do some work as a TA or in a professor's lab.

The real cost is the ~5 years of your life.

Comment author: CellBioGuy 05 October 2015 10:01:37PM *  4 points [-]

This is most assuredly the case in the biological sciences. And you DO have to do work with your mentor, and sometimes also TA.

Comment author: jsteinhardt 12 October 2015 02:09:02AM 1 point [-]

I don't think lurking around campus is going to lead to the same results as being immersed in a research environment full-time (especially if you're not doing research yourself). I generally think that a large amount of useful knowledge is tacit and that it's hard to absorb without being pretty directly involved.

Also as others have noted, a PhD is free / paid for so (economic) cost isn't that much of a consideration.

Comment author: nyralech 04 October 2015 08:40:08PM 0 points [-]

Is there any way to do these things without paying a large pricetag? Could you just lurk around campus or something? Only half-joking here.

Moving to europe, and (maybe) not exactly GB, should for the most part allow you to do that.