Benito comments on Deliberate Grad School - Less Wrong

22 Post author: Academian 04 October 2015 10:11AM

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Comment author: Benito 17 October 2015 06:04:45PM 0 points [-]

Question: Did you make a post of this nature before?

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 21 October 2015 04:13:55PM 2 points [-]

I don't write top level posts, but I took issue w/ Luke taking a shit on academic philosophy, for instance.

Comment author: Benito 21 October 2015 08:01:53PM 0 points [-]

I don't see that the above post refutes any arguments Luke made about academic philosophy. What were the basics of your disagreements with his arguments?

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 21 October 2015 09:07:55PM *  3 points [-]

Luke is not qualified to shit on academic philosophy. He simply doesn't have the background or the overview. And it's a terrible idea for social reasons, it just makes people not take LW seriously. I would be happy to accept critiques of the philosophy establishment from e.g. Clark Glymour, not from Luke. There is a ton of value in philosophy you are leaving on the table if you shit on philosophy.

My other big annoyance is the "LW Bayesians" (who are similarly not qualified generally to have strong opinions about these issues, and instead should read stats/ML literature). Although I should say very sophisticated stats folks occasionally post here (but I don't count them among the "LW Bayesians" number, as they understand issues with Bayes very well).

Comment author: SanguineEmpiricist 08 November 2015 12:43:48AM 1 point [-]

Love this, Luke is actually well read so maybe it's a bit tough on him, but the casual dismissal and elitist posturing is pretty dumb and cringe inducing. Philosophy is underrated around these parts.

Comment author: Benito 22 October 2015 05:43:55AM *  1 point [-]

Could you provide an object level counter argument please? A strong one would give me a lot more credence that Luke's work was not an accurate portrayal of academic philosophy.

(Three would be preferred)

(Object level might look like "philosophers are making useful progress by metric X" or "I expect philosophers' work to be very useful in area of science a because b" or "doing a PhD in philosophy has lots of value in the world for reasons p, q and r")

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 22 October 2015 02:44:19PM *  2 points [-]

I am not very interested in convincing you.

You said:

It's striking how much value there is in academia that I didn't notice

So look for the value! Don't write the entire field off, lots of smart people there, probably you are missing something.


But for example quite a few very smart causal inference people are in philosophy. That conference on decision theory MIRI went to in Cambridge was hosted by philosophers. Some philosophers deal with very hard problems that do not map onto empiricism very well, etc.

Comment author: pragmatist 22 October 2015 03:26:06PM *  2 points [-]

I think Luke will agree with you on what you say here, though. I remember commenting on one of his posts that was critical of philosophy, saying that his arguments didn't really apply to the area of philosophy I'm involved in (technical philosophy of science). Luke's response was essentially, "I agree. I'm not talking about philosophy of science." I think he'd probably say the same about philosophical work on decision theory and causal inference.

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 22 October 2015 03:44:54PM *  4 points [-]

Isn't that motte/bailey: "philosophy, a diseased discipline" is not a very discriminating title. The best line of his post is this:

I have an efficient filter for skipping past the 95% of philosophy that isn't useful to me.

And this is definitely ok!


But again, I am not super interested in arguing with people about whether philosophy is worthwhile. I have better things to do. I was only pointing out in response to the OP that I have been harping on LW's silly anti-academic sentiment for ages, that's all.

Comment author: pragmatist 22 October 2015 04:08:25PM *  4 points [-]

Isn't that motte/bailey

Not sure it's motte-and-bailey. I do think there are several serious pathologies in large swathes of contemporary philosophy. And I say this not as a dilettante, but a professional philosopher. There are areas of philosophy where these pathological tendencies are being successfully held at bay, and I do think there are promising signs that those areas are growing in influence. But much of mainstream philosophy, especially mainstream metaphysics and epistemology, does suffer from continued adherence to what I consider archaic and unhelpful methodology. And I think that's what Luke is trying to point out. He does go overboard with his rhetoric, and I think he lacks a feel for the genuine insights of the Western philosophical tradition (as smart and insightful as I think Yudkowsky is, I really find it odd that someone who purports to be reasonably familar with philosophy would cite him as their favorite philosopher). But I think there is a sound point lurking under there, and not merely a banal "motte"-style point.

I was only pointing out in response to the OP that I have been harping on LW's silly anti-academic sentiment for ages, that's all.

I absolutely agree with you on the silliness of the anti-academic sentiment.

Comment author: [deleted] 25 October 2015 09:45:37PM 3 points [-]

But much of mainstream philosophy, especially mainstream metaphysics and epistemology, does suffer from continued adherence to what I consider archaic and unhelpful methodology.

Would you mind explaining your perspective? I'm always interested to hear more angles on this, since with my current sample-size being roughly three (Dennett, Railton, Churchland), I tend to think I have an incomplete picture.

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 22 October 2015 04:12:49PM 0 points [-]

Everyone on LW should consider Francis Bacon their patron saint, imo :).

Comment author: [deleted] 25 October 2015 09:41:12PM *  2 points [-]

In defense of Luke, when I've spent the time to read through philosophy books by strong-naturalist academic philosophers, they've often devoted page-counts easily equivalent in length to "Philosophy: a diseased discipline" to carefully, charitably, academically, verbosely tearing non-naturalist philosophy a new asshole. Luke's post has tended to be a breath of fresh air that I reread after reading any philosophy paper that doesn't come from a strongly naturalist perspective.

It sincerely worries me that the academics in philosophy who do really excellent work, work that does apply to the real world-that-is-made-of-atoms, work that does map-the-territory, have to spend large amounts of effort just beating down obviously bad beliefs over and over again. You should be able to shoot down a bad idea once, preferably in the peer-review phase, and not have to fight it again and again like a bad zombie.

(Examples of obviously bad ideas: p-zombies, Platonism, Bayesian epistemology (the latter two may require explanation).)

Now, to signal fairness even where I'm blatantly opinionated, plenty of people on LW are indeed irritatingly "men of one idea", that usually being some variation on AIXI. And in fact, plenty of people on LW hold philosophical opinions I consider obviously bad, like mathematical Platonism.

But the answer to those bad things hasn't usually been "more philosophy", as if any philosophy is good philosophy, but instead more naturalism, investing more effort to accommodate conceptual theorizing to the world-that-is-made-of-atoms.

Since significant portions of academic philosophy (for instance, Thomas Nagel) are instead devoted to the view - one that I once expected to be contrarian but which I now find depressingly common - that science and naturalism are wrong, or that they are unjustified, or that they are necessarily incapable of answering some-or-another important question - having one page on a contrarian intellectual-hipsters' website devoted to ragging on these ought-to-be-contrarian views is a bit of a relief.

Comment author: iarwain1 26 October 2015 03:49:39PM 4 points [-]

Examples of obviously bad ideas: p-zombies, Platonism, Bayesian epistemology (the latter two may require explanation).

Could you provide that explanation?

Comment author: Lumifer 26 October 2015 04:29:12PM 5 points [-]

Examples of obviously bad ideas ... (... may require explanation)

That word, "obviously", I don't think it means what you think it means :-)

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 03 November 2015 02:26:31PM *  0 points [-]

(Examples of obviously bad ideas: p-zombies, Platonism, Bayesian epistemology (the latter two may require explanation

I'm not a fan of mathematical Platonism, but physical realists, however hardline, face some very difficult problems regarding the ontologica status of physical law, which make Platonism hard to rule out. (And no, the perenially popular "laws are just descriptions" isn't a good answer).

P-zombies as a subject worth discussing, or as something that can exist in our univese? But most of the people who discuss PZs don't think they can exist in our universe. There is some poor quality criticisim of philosophy about as well.

The problems with Bayes are suffcieintly non-obvious to have eluded many or most at LW.

Comment author: entirelyuseless 26 October 2015 02:31:52PM 0 points [-]

Starting out by expecting a view opposed to your own to be contrarian is a typical form of overconfidence, and not just overconfidence about other people's opinions.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 03 November 2015 02:18:20PM 0 points [-]

He could have saved himself some trouble by writing "Philosophy: a Partly Diseased Disciplien" or "Philosophy: a Bit of a Curate's Egg".

Comment author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2015 03:21:11PM *  0 points [-]

How about:

  • a link to the article by Luke that you're talking about
  • the names of some good current philosophy journals
Comment author: gjm 22 October 2015 04:49:12PM 1 point [-]

I think the article Ilya has in mind is this one: Philosophy, a diseased discipline.

Comment author: pragmatist 22 October 2015 03:27:30PM *  1 point [-]

I can help with the second request:

The British Journal for the Philosophy of Science

Comment author: PhilGoetz 29 October 2015 03:26:43AM *  0 points [-]

That seems to be entirely analytic philosophy. My problem is that analytical philosophy is culturally irrelevant. Anthropologists, sociologists, art theorists, and artists talk about continental philosophy, Saussurian (!) linguistics, and psychoanalytic theory. The only things they use from analytic philosophy are arguments like Godel's incompleteness theorem, Wittgenstein's later stuff, or Quine's ontological relativism, that they interpret as saying that analytic philosophy doesn't work.

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 29 October 2015 03:34:22AM 0 points [-]

Analytic philosophers will find the strength to carry on, somehow.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 22 October 2015 02:21:10AM *  0 points [-]

Someone who's studied stats and ML is much more qualified to talk about philosophy than someone who's studied academic philosophy.

My comment may be irrelevant. You didn't provide a link to Luke's article, so I don't have the context, and am only guessing at your meaning.

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 22 October 2015 03:23:14AM 0 points [-]

^ this is what I am talking about. For some reason I think Luke has a bachelor's degree with a major in cognitive science (but I don't remember exactly).

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 22 October 2015 03:00:50PM 1 point [-]

I was under the impression that he studied psychology, but dropped out before graduating. (An old interview has him mentioning that "I studied psychology in university but quickly found that I learn better and faster as an autodidact", and back when he was still employed at MIRI, his profile on the staff page didn't mention any degree whereas it did for almost everyone else.)

Comment author: IlyaShpitser 23 October 2015 12:48:54AM *  1 point [-]

Just so we are clear -- I am not really attacking Luke. I met him, we talked on skype, etc. He's a sensible dude. I am just not weighing his opinion of philosophy very highly. "Mixture of experts" and all that.