Wes_W comments on The mystery of Brahms - Less Wrong

5 Post author: PhilGoetz 21 October 2015 05:12AM

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Comment author: gjm 21 October 2015 11:39:17AM 11 points [-]

I'm not sure Brahms was as unoriginal as you make out. In any case, his style is certainly no older than (say) mid-to-late Beethoven; Beethoven died in 1827 and I'm pretty sure that when Brahms was born in 1833 mid-to-late Beethoven wasn't "out of style" in any useful sense.

J S Bach's music was widely regarded as old-fashioned in his own lifetime, but if anyone's canon[1] he is.

Saint-Saƫns was born later than Brahms but his music isn't any more "modern" than Brahms's, and he was both popular and well regarded by critics (not as well regarded as Brahms, but that's perfectly well explained by his not being quite as good).

[1] Pun not intended but deliberately left in once noticed.

I think the following is perfectly credible and consistent with Brahms's success:

  • To be regarded as a great artist, one must do impressive things.
  • Great skill is impressive. So is great novelty, at least if accompanied by sufficient skill.
  • So famous artists will tend to be skilled and original, but the exact proportions of skill and originality will vary.
  • Brahms was exceptionally skilled and (for a first-rank composer) relatively unoriginal. In comparison, e.g., maybe John Cage was exceptionally original and relatively unskilled.
  • That's all.

There's really only a puzzle if you insist on saying that success generally has nothing to do with skill, which sounds impressively cynical but really doesn't seem particularly likely to be correct.

Comment author: Wes_W 22 October 2015 12:56:59AM *  1 point [-]

If I were making music in the style of someone who died six years before I was born, people would probably think I was out of style. I'm not sure if this is the historical fallacy I don't have a name for, where we gloss over differences in a few decades because they're less salient to us than the differences between the 1990s and the 1960s, or if musical styles just change more quickly now.

Comment author: Memory_Slip 22 October 2015 03:21:31AM 2 points [-]

It seems that the pace of change in music waxes and wanes, and does not seem to be accelerating. The twenty year gap from 1955 to 1975 is enormous. From 1995 to 2015, not so much.

Comment author: gjm 22 October 2015 09:15:59AM 1 point [-]

Oh, I agree; Brahms was quite old-fashioned. But Phil specifically said that Brahms's was writing music in a style that "had gone out of fashion before he was born", which I think is clearly not true.

Comment author: Wes_W 22 October 2015 03:41:00PM 0 points [-]

You're right, I missed that line.