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Bugmaster comments on Circular Altruism - Less Wrong
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Well, he didn't actually identify dust mote disutility as zero; he says that dust motes register as zero on his torture scale. He goes on to mention that torture isn't on his dust-mote scale, so he isn't just using "torture scale" as a synonym for "disutility scale"; rather, he is emphasizing that there is more than just a single "(dis)utility scale" involved. I believe his contention is that the events (torture and dust-mote-in-the-eye) are fundamentally different in terms of "how the mind experiences and deals with [them]", such that no amount of dust motes can add up to the experience of torture... even if they (the motes) have a nonzero amount of disutility.
I believe I am making much the same distinction with my separation of disutility into trivial and non-trivial categories, where no amount of trivial disutility across multiple people can sum to the experience of non-trivial disutility. There is a fundamental gap in the scale (or different scales altogether, à la Jones), a difference in how different amounts of disutility work for humans. For a more concrete example of how this might work, suppose I steal one cent each from one billion different people, and Eliezer steals $100,000 from one person. The total amount of money I have stolen is greater than the amount that Eliezer has stolen; yet my victims will probably never even realize their loss, whereas the loss of $100,000 for one individual is significant. A cent does have a nonzero amount of purchasing power, but none of my victims have actually lost the ability to purchase anything; whereas Eliezer's, on the other hand, has lost the ability to purchase many, many things.
I believe utility for humans works in the same manner. Another thought experiment I found helpful is to imagine a certain amount of disutility, x, being experienced by one person. Let's suppose x is "being brutally tortured for a week straight". Call this situation A. Now divide this disutility among people until we have y people all experiencing (1/y)*x disutility - say, a dust speck in the eye each. Call this situation B. If we can add up disutility like Eliezer supposes in the main article, the total amount of disutility in either situation is the same. But now, ask yourself: which situation would you choose to bring about, if you were forced to pick one?
Would you just flip a coin?
I believe few, if any, would choose situation A. This brings me to a final point I've been wanting to make about this article, but have never gotten around to doing. Mr. Yudkowsky often defines rationality as winning - a reasonable definition, I think. But with this dust speck scenario, if we accept Mr. Yudkowsky's reasoning and choose the one-person-being-tortured option, we end up with a situation in which every participant would rather that the other option had been chosen! Certainly the individual being tortured would prefer that, and each potentially dust-specked individual* would gladly agree to experience an instant of dust-speckiness in order to save the former individual.
I don't think this is winning; no one is happier with this situation. Like Eliezer says in reference to Newcomb's problem, if rationality seems to be telling us to go with the choice that results in losing, perhaps we need to take another look at what we're calling rationality.
*Well, assuming a population like our own, not every single individual would agree to experience a dust speck in the eye to save the to-be-tortured individual; but I think it is clear that the vast majority would.
Isn't this a reductio of your argument? Stealing $10,000,000 has less economic effect than stealing $100,000, really? Well, why don't we just do it over and over, then, since it has no effect each time? If I repeated it enough times, you would suddenly decide that the average effect of each $10,000,000 theft, all told, had been much larger than the average effect of the $100,000 theft. So where is the point at which, suddenly, stealing 1 more cent from everyone has a much larger and disproportionate effect, enough to make up for all the "negligible" effects earlier?
See also: http://lesswrong.com/lw/n3/circular_altruism/
It seems like you and Hul-Gil are using different formulae for evaluating utility (or, rather, disutility); and, therefore, you are talking past each other.
While Hul-Gil is looking solely at the immediate purchasing power of each individual, you are considering ripple effects affecting the economy as a whole. Thus, while stealing a single penny from a single individual may have negligible disutility, removing 1e9 such pennies from 1e9 individuals will have a strong negative effect on the economy, thus reducing the effective purchasing power of everyone, your victims included.
This is a valid point, but it doesn't really lend any support to either side in your argument with Hul-Gil, since you're comparing apples and oranges.
I'm pretty sure Eliezer's point holds even if you only consider the immediate purchasing power of each individual.
Let us define thefts A and B:
A : Steal 1 cent from each of 1e9 individuals. B : Steal 1e7 cents from 1 individual.
The claim here is that A has negligible disutility compared to B. However, we can define a new theft C as follows:
C: Steal 1e7 cents from each of 1e9 individuals.
Now, I don't discount the possibility that there are arguments to the contrary, but naively it seems that a C theft is 1e9 times as bad as a B theft. But a C theft is equivalent to 1e7 A thefts. So, necessarily, one of those A thefts must have been worse than a B theft - substantially worse. Eliezer's question is: if the first one is negligible, at what point do they become so much worse?
I think this is a question of ongoing collateral effects (not sure if "externalities" is the right word to use here). The examples that speak of money are additionally complicated by the fact that the purchasing power of money does not scale linearly with the amount of money you have.
Consider the following two scenarios:
A). Inflict -1e-3 utility on 1e9 individuals with negligible consequences over time, or B). Inflict a -1e7 utility on a single individual, with further -1e7 consequences in the future.
vs.
C). Inflict a -1e-3 utility on 1e9 individuals leading to an additional -1e9 utility over time, or B). Inflict a one-time -1e7 utility on a single individual, with no additional consequences.
Which one would you pick, A or B, and C or D ? Of course, we can play with the numbers to make A and C more or less attractive.
I think the problem with Eliezer's "dust speck" scenario is that his disutility of option A -- i.e., the dust specs -- is basically epsilon, and since it has no additional costs, you might as well pick A. The alternative is a rather solid chunk of disutility -- the torture -- that will further add up even after the initial torture is over (due to ongoing physical and mental health problems).
The "grand theft penny" scenario can be seen as AB or CD, depending on how you think about money; and the right answer in either case might change depending on how much you think a penny is actually worth.