Jiro comments on Rationality Quotes Thread January 2016 - Less Wrong

5 Post author: elharo 01 January 2016 04:00PM

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Comment author: TimS 27 January 2016 02:37:48AM 0 points [-]

Clarence Thomas is widely considered one of the worst Supreme Court justices in memory, and is famously uninvolved, going years without a question; he has also written harshly about how he feels affirmative action cheapened his degrees.

Thomas is extremely conservative, far out of the mainstream of American legal thought. That said, worse Supreme Court Justice is roughly like worst tenured physicist at MIT. It hardly means he isn't smart. In particular, not-talking-during-oral-argument doesn't mean not involved, and is another arguments-are-soldiers attack by liberal American legal society on someone who is admittedly far out of mainstream legal thought.

Your reference to his position on affirmative action is particularly confusing to me, because his point is a standard, fairly mainstream argument against AA. If that was his most extreme legal position, he'd be the swing vote, not the farthest right (or second farthest, depending on how one counts Alito).

The rest of your post is well taken, and I will have to think on it.

When was the last time you saw a retarded person bashing their head against the wall?

I can only point to my professional work as an attorney for special education students to give you a sense of my experience with what an 80 IQ student is like.

Comment author: gwern 27 January 2016 03:57:13AM *  2 points [-]

Thomas is extremely conservative, far out of the mainstream of American legal thought.

As are Rehnquist, Scalia, and others, yet Thomas is by far the least respected, least cited, and least noted. (Of all the people you had to cite as accomplished black people, you had to pick Clarence Thomas...) If Thomas is still so 'extreme' despite his bully pulpit for expounding & enforcing his views, that also says a lot about how good a justice he has been.

That said, worse Supreme Court Justice is roughly like worst tenured physicist at MIT.

Not really. The tenure process at MIT can be trusted a lot more than 'whatever candidate is young, politically expedient, and can be pushed through Congress', especially considering that justice nominations used to be relatively deferential. A candidate has to be as bad as, say, Harriet Miers to get rejected. I don't know how many physicists would make tenure with a similar slate of accomplishments and, to illustrate the relative looseness, highly public accusations of sexual harassment.

In particular, not-talking-during-oral-argument doesn't mean not involved

That would be reasonable to note if he wrote many majority opinions, played a large role in changing the others' opinions (of course, then he'd look less 'extreme' if he was contributing behind the scenes, wouldn't he?), or in any way was not a ghost who could be replaced by his clerks with no one the wiser.

Your reference to his position on affirmative action is particularly confusing to me, because his point is a standard, fairly mainstream argument against AA.

You misunderstood my point. My point there was that I agree with the criticisms of AA as harmful and pernicious through its effects in promoting people to positions and degrees they are not fully qualified for (the relevance of which should be obvious), and I was noting that far from being a nasty personal attack by me on Thomas, he himself says it played a part in his career, and who are we to disagree?

I can only point to my professional work as an attorney for special education students to give you a sense of my experience with what an 80 IQ student is like.

That's not an answer to any of my other questions. Why do you think your limited, bubble-filled experience is good evidence for overriding a century of carefully constructed tests drawing on millions of nationally representative people and exhaustively vetted for bias as documented in books like Jensen's Bias in Mental Testing?

(Even if we granted your special ed beliefs accurate status, although I don't know about that either - I too was a special ed kid, but any lawyer who spent some time with me as my family fought the school district would not have had a representative impression of special ed kids, both because I was unrepresentative (and that's why I was mainstreamed), and because the long cumulative day to day interactions are different from occasional interactions. My mom still works with special ed kids and mentioned that one of her teachers had her nose broken by one of her kids who was handleable right up until he broke her nose; one of my best friends was also in special ed, and he could be a pretty decent guy for weeks or months at a time until his anger problems finally exploded at you - we drifted apart so I'm not sure what happened to him but last I heard he was in prison, which did not surprise me in the least bit. Life is as much about the lowest points as the average points.)

Comment author: Jiro 27 January 2016 07:47:00AM 6 points [-]

Thomas is the "least respected" because the left has a special hatred for black people who don't toe the line and take the political side that they want black people to take, not because he is actually less worthy of respect than the other conservative justices.

Comment author: entirelyuseless 27 January 2016 01:36:17PM 3 points [-]

I think this is almost certainly the case, as well as the fact that Thomas is even more extremely conservative than the others. So I found Gwern's comment surprising, since he really seems to be attacking Thomas for his politics alone. As for the fact that he doesn't get involved in the questions, he has said himself that the reason is that he already knows his opinion and it isn't going to change. We have no reason to doubt this assertion, which is arrogant and overconfident, but which does not even come close to proving that he's stupid. As for behind-the-scenes influence, it is very possible that he has had quite a bit, e.g. with the interpretation of the Second Amendment.

Comment author: Lumifer 27 January 2016 03:29:57PM 2 points [-]

the left has a special hatred for black people who don't toe the line and take the political side that they want black people to take

Latinos as well -- both Cruz and Rubio have been called "traitors".