Anyone who's been following this idea as it metastasised might be happy to know that I'm now a retired amateur endocrinologist. This is as good an argument as I'm ever going to make, and it should be turned over to adults now. Thank you all for your helpful comments and suggestions. Everyone's been wonderful.
Eric Drexler pointed out to me the other day that there probably is a path to superintelligent help without bringing on the apocalypse, so maybe we can get to paradise after all. His argument is very good. That looks like it might be more interesting than endocrinology, which seems to be more of a social problem than anything I can help with.
I think it's now urgent to bring this to the attention of the medical profession and the sufferers' groups. Has anyone got any ideas how to do that?
At least posting this stuff here is a start, and thank you for doing this. I do not have this problem myself, but I saw the pattern often enough in others that I have independently (of any medical knowledge or opinions of other people) developed this reaction:
someone has chronically low energy / mood -> check if they have obvious problems with diet/sleep/exercise -> if not, suspect thyroid-related dere...
You wouldn't need to invoke the idea of 'hormone resistance' because TSH and T4 tests normally used to diagnose hypothyroidism don't measure the active hormone - T3. T4 is just a prohormone with very little direct activity on metabolic rate.
In primates, metabolism is regulated primarily in the liver by T4->T3 conversion, so if this is inhibited for any reason it will suppress metabolism without showing up on those tests. Low calorie intake, and poor nutrition are known to cause this (e.g. Euthyroid sick syndrome). In cases of poor liver conversion, supp...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9513740
What do you make of this? I'll note that it's a very small sample size, and I don't think it says whether those particular CFS patients report feeling chilled all the time. It also wouldn't surprise the hell out of me if there's some way a body can go wrong so that a person has a normal core temperature (what about the periphery?), but feels chilled anyway.
Also, in regards to being stupid-- I know some people with CFS who seem pretty smart, but who complain of brainfog. Perhaps they do most or all of their posting when the brainfog lifts.
I think it's important to have a more global vision of the problem. Knowing what the situation is in different countries could be a start. Post it as replies to this comment, with the country you live in, and the situation there (the best would be to ask one or more doctors about it, in order to be sure we can trust it). Personally, I live in France. Here, desiccated thyroid isn't sold anymore to everybody. According to two doctors I know, it's because bad things used to happen back in the days where it was completely accessible (in the 60' I believe). I am still researching informations about the hypothesis itself in my country, I'll post it if I learn anything. Thank you for your replies by advance!
Why is the Pollock trial evidence supporting your hypothesis? What outcome from the trial would you have considered to be evidence against it?
Also, what part suggests that the healthy controls could distinguish the treatment from placebo? From Table 4, it seems that the reverse is true.
At first glance, the results from that study look like straightforward evidence that this treatment is actively harmful. I’d also point out that RCTs need to be standardized across patients. I can’t say whether the inclusion criteria should have been different, but choosin...
What do you think about the notion that rising perchlorate levels in food in North America in recent decades could be contributing to thyroid problems in the population? It inhibits iodide pumps throughout the body, not just the thyroid, and has a particular effect on babies getting iodine through these iodide pumps in breast tissue making milk.
Oh, and a postscript.
Gordon Skinner wrote a book: Diagnosis and Management of Hypothyroidism
It's digressive, irreverent, and gloriously politically incorrect. I love it, but I recognise a certain British sense of self-deprecating humour which will not go down terribly well with everyone.
In my reading of it, he is full of self-doubt, and finds the behaviour of his own profession ridiculous and is hiding behind his jokes and raw language.
He describes many years of treating hypothyoidism by its symptoms, pretty much ignoring lab tests. As he describes it, it...
I got a reply from an actual endocrinologist! I'm not going to use his name because ethics, and because it was kind of him to reply at all, and more than any of his colleagues have done, but am I wrong to detect a certain lack of curiosity? Or do you think they're all too busy beavering away at the problem to bother answering e-mails from cranks?
to: subject: crank-trap
Dear [First Name],
Is there any reason why people think that thyroid hormone resistance is only congenital and never acquired?
Given the widespread acquired resistance to insulin it seems an o...
Thank you so much, intelligent and careful criticism like this is exactly what I started posting on Less Wrong for!
Why is the Pollock trial evidence supporting your hypothesis?
Well, it's only fairly weak evidence, but it does seem that the healthy controls reacted differently to the patient group. What it really proves is that thyroxine isn't just a nice recreational drug that everyone likes. Healthy people dislike it. But it seems to have been less bad for the patients on average. So I imagine there were some people in the patient group who reacted well.
What I'm saying is that Skinner got strong evidence for the idea, and wanted it confirmed by PCRT (and I agree, that's necessary). So they did a PCRT, but not very well because they didn't find patients carefully. And yet they seem to have supported him anyway, but everyone thinks that they refuted him, because they didn't quite understand what he was saying.
What outcome from the trial would you have considered to be evidence against it?
If none of the patients had had any sort of thyroid problem, I'd have expected it to be equally bad for everyone. If that had been the result, then I'd have had to think that 'type 2 hypothyroidism' is rare, or that 'fixed doses of thyroxine don't fix it'. For a long time that's exactly what I did think! I was assuming you might need T3 as well and you might need to adust the ratio carefully. Skinner and Pollock together make me think that it might be fairly common, and mostly fixable with T4 alone.
Also, what part suggests that the healthy controls could distinguish the treatment from placebo? From Table 4, it seems that the reverse is true.
That shows that when they were asked which was the active preparation, they couldn't tell. They appear to have had a 'nocebo' effect, where they interpreted everything they felt as an effect of the drug. That's as expected.
What makes me think that they felt bad on thyroxine is table 2, where all the 'self-reported' psychological scores have got worse from thyroxine. In particular p=0.007 for the decline in Vitality. Since, as you point out, they really didn't know which was which, it's hard to see how they could have faked that.
At first glance, the results from that study look like straightforward evidence that this treatment is actively harmful.
Absolutely this treatment is harmful to healthy people. It should cause 'hypermetabolism', which is unpleasant. And severe hypermetabolism is awful. Very like the manic phase of manic depression. You should be careful not to give drugs to people who don't need them. That's why in the old days, if they weren't sure, they'd give you a bit and watch to see what effect it had. That was pretty much their test, except in the obvious cases.
but choosing a single dose is normal procedure.
Yes, but that does mean that anything that needs careful dose control will get rejected. In this case I think it might have made the treatment less effective, but it shouldn't have ruined it. I'm not making any criticism of the people who did this trial, I think it was a brave try and they did it well. I just don't think it's enough to refute Skinner. In fact I think it was supportive.
From what I’m reading I don’t think there is any recognized clinical diagnosis of hypothyroidism. The TSH test is the gold standard.
There was once. The paper:
STATISTICAL METHODS APPLIED TO THE DIAGNOSIS OF HYPOTHYROIDISM by W. Z. BILLEWICZ, R. S. CHAPMAN, J. CROOKS, M. E. DAY, J. GOSSAGE, SIR EDWARD WAYNE, AND J. A. YOUNG
was the last word in 'clinical diagnosis'. It was very very difficult to do, and GPs tended to refer suspected cases to experts. In doubtful cases they just tried treating it with small amounts of thyroid and checked that people improved rather than being made anxious and hyper.
The TSH test replaced that around 1970. But they never seem to have checked that clinical and biochemical diagnoses detected the same things, and after that there was the slow emergence of all sorts of nasty diseases that look very like hypothyroidism in the clinical sense but have normal TSH.
The TSH test seems to have been accepted (and then ruthlessly enforced) on the basis of theoretical arguments that weren't checked experimentally.
I do think that the TSH test detects gland failure quite well, in fact I think that if your thyroid gland gets destroyed, your TSH value will become huge. My (excellent) GP tells me that he sees people with TSH 30 with no symptoms at all (yet! Their thyroids are obviously on the way out...).
In fact the original 'normal range' for TSH was very wide indeed. And I think that's probably right too. Over the years the 'normal range' has got narrowed to the point where it's now so narrow people with abnormal TSH usually don't have any symptoms, and the noise in the test can put you outside the range. That's kind of weird. See recent AACB study where they thought the upper limit of normal should be 2.5.
There was a recent attempt to define a new clinical score (Zulewski et al), but the authors of the paper who'd constructed it refused to endorse it because the symptoms didn't correlate with TSH. That says to me that the test isn't detecting the disease it's supposed to detect.
You have the burden of proof
Absolutely accept that! And if Skinner was right, it should be dead easy to prove. Just re-run the Scottish trial using Billewicz as the entry criterion. It would be better if you could adjust the dose, but it should work quite well with a fixed dose, if you accept you're going to under-treat some people and over-treat others. Actually I'd rather use titrated doses of desiccated thyroid, since that's what they used to do, or T4/T3 combinations, but if I believe Skinner then they should all work, and it's just a question of which works best.
Could you summarize your support for this claim? Are these the only two peer-reviewed articles?
These are the only ones I can find through google scholar / pubmed. That in itself is really surprising and one of the things I can't explain! Why has such an obvious thing not been ruled out? Real doctors seem to try it all the time, find it works, and then get persecuted for trying it.
All the rest of it is anecdotal, from alternative sources, but there's a mountain of it. Just google. If people have tried this and it didn't work, they're keeping very quiet. All I've heard against is 'it helps, but it doesn't fix it entirely'. And the alternative people say exactly that themselves, and reckon that there's usually something adrenal going on as well.
I'd point primarily to Broda Barnes, John Lowe, Kenneth Blanchard, Gordon Skinner, Sarah Myhill, Barry Durrant-Peatfield, the various thyroid activist groups, Kent Holtorf, and 'Wilson's syndrome', off the top of my head, but there's plenty more where that came from. And a lot of those guys are actual medical doctors. The big exception is John Lowe, who was a chiropractor. But I've read a lot of his stuff and he was a very careful, thoughtful man.
90% of medical research findings are false
Indeed. The whole thing is a disaster. John Ioannides said 'Evidence Based Medicine Has Been Hijacked'. But I think it's worse than that. By saying that you're going to ignore the experience of doctors, and only accept very expensive evidence that can only be provided by wealthy sources, and even then using methods so bad that they're practically guaranteed to produce false answers, you've completely cut yourselves off from the truth.
I'd go further and say 'Evidence Based Medicine Has Been A Catastrophe'. I'm not more than half-convinced this thryoid-craziness is true, but I think the fact that it's never been properly investigated is a complete scandal.
I'm not against "evidence based medicine" because it's based on evidence. I'm against "evidence based medicine" precisely because it's based on ignoring most of the evidence. -- GK Chesterton's Homeopath.
I was helping a consultant friend revise for an interview the other day, and one of the practice questions was 'describe the hierarchy of evidence'. He put 'expert opinion' bottom.
Really? Forty years of experience in treating patients is less valuable than a single anecdote published in a journal? Really?
And of course, it doesn't actually work that way. The TSH test ruling out hypothyroidism is expert opinion. Its reliability is unfounded dogma. I can't find any evidence for it as the sole measure of thyroid system function at all.
If none of the patients had had any sort of thyroid problem, I'd have expected it to be equally bad for everyone.
I’m talking about conservation of expected evidence. If X is positive evidence, then ~X is negative evidence. An experiment only supports a hypothesis if it was possible for it to come out another way that refutes it. And if an experiment that could have supported the hypothesis actually didn’t, then it’s evidence against.
...What makes me think that they felt bad on thyroxine is table 2, where all the 'self-reported' psychological scores
Recap: (See also: http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/nef/the_thyroid_madness_core_argument_evidence/ and previous posts)
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia all look far too much like the classical presentation of hypothyroidism for comfort, but thyroid hormone blood tests are normal.
Many alternative medicine practitioners, most prominently John Lowe, and several conventional medical doctors, most prominently Kenneth Blanchard, a practising endocrinologist with a longstanding practice completely free of lawsuits, have tried diagnosing hypothyroidism 'by clinical symptoms', and treating it with various combinations of thyroid hormones, and they all report success, but the practice is dismissed as ignorant and dangerous quackery by conventional medicine.
I suspect that there are acquired 'hormone resistance' or 'type II' versions of all the various endocrine disorders. These would produce the symptoms without reducing the levels of the hormones in the blood. However hormone treatments should still work, simply by overwhelming the resistance.
We know that diabetes comes in two forms, (type I) gland failure and (type II), 'insulin resistance', and that the resistance version is usually acquired rather than inborn. The mechanism for the resistance version of diabetes is mysterious.
There are known to be corresponding 'gland failure' and 'resistance' versions of diseases associated with all the other endocrine hormones, but for some reason the resistance versions are thought to be very rare, and only to be inherited, never acquired.
Should such acquired resistance mechanisms exist and be common, then on evolutionary grounds they would have to be caused by the direct action of pathogens, be a side effect of immune defense against such pathogens, or have an environmental cause. Nothing else would be stable.
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome often seems to start with an infection.
I thought until recently that the problem must be rather complex, and depend on subtle balances of hormones in a complicated system. The idea is so simple and obvious that if it were straightforwardly true, it isn't credible that it would have been missed.
But it turns out that there have been two formal studies of the simplest possible version of idea (treat the symptoms of hypothyroidism with thyroxine) in the medical literature. And they're all I've managed to find. Further examples would be most welcome.
The two studies are apparently contradictory, but there's no real contradiction, in fact the second supports the first.
The first:
Clinical Response to Thyroxine Sodium in Clinically Hypothyroid but Biochemically Euthyroid Patients
G. R. B. SKINNER MD DSc FRCPath FRCOG, D. HOLMES, A. AHMAD PhD, J. A. DAVIES BSc and J. BENITEZ MSc
was an open trial done in 2000, by Gordon Skinner in Birmingham.
Dr Skinner took 139 patients, all of whom had symptoms consistent with a clinical diagnosis of hypothyroidism.
Of these the majority had been diagnosed with CFS or ME or Post-Viral Fatigue Syndrome, but thirty had been diagnosed with Major Depression, which also has all the right symptoms.
Dr Skinner started off with small doses of thyroxine, and slowly increased the doses, to quite high levels, until the patients got better. He reported that they all got considerably better. In fact his results are phenomenally good.
He mentioned the possibility of placebo effect, and the necessity of ruling it by placebo-controlled blinded randomised trial in the paper, but thought it unlikely. Many of these patients had been seriously ill for many years, and had usually tried a lot of things already.
[ From the study ] In the absence of a control group, a placebo effect cannot be excluded in this or any study. However, the average duration of illness was 7.5 years in patients who had usually undergone an alarming array of traditional and alternative medications without significant improvement as evidenced by their wish to seek further medical advice. Secondly, certain clinical features allowed objective assessment, namely change in appearance, hair or skin texture, reduction in size of tongue and thyroid gland and increase in pulse rate.
If these patients hadn't had a hormone resistance, he would have done them very serious harm! He kept increasing the dose until it worked, and the highest dose he used was 300mg of thyroxine. That's more than the amount you'd usually use to completely replace the output of a removed thyroid gland. Given that all these people had normal hormone levels to start with, if the patient was not resisting the hormone, this should have caused a range of extremely unpleasant symptoms, including death.
He mentions no adverse effects whatsoever.
Dr Skinner wrote to the British Medical Journal suggesting that thryoxine should be tried in cases where the clinical symptoms of hypothyroidism were present but the blood tests were normal.
This prompted a small trial:
Thyroxine treatment in patients with symptoms of hypothyroidism but thyroid function tests within the reference range: randomised double blind placebo controlled crossover trial
M Anne Pollock, Alison Sturrock, Karen Marshall, Kate M Davidson, Christopher J G Kelly, Alex D McMahon, E Hamish McLaren
This trial looks very well designed and established that:
(a) There was a huge placebo effect in the patients
(b) Thyroxine is very strongly disliked by the healthy controls (they could tell it from placebo and hated it)
(c) The patient group couldn't tell the difference between thyroxine and placebo (on average).
This result is very interesting of itself, and I make no criticism of the brave GPs who organised it in response to Skinner's letter, but unfortunately it has been taken as a refutation of Skinner's methods. Which it is not. In fact it supports him.
In fact there are two obvious relevant differences between what they did and what Skinner did:
(i) They used a fixed dose for everyone (100mg thyroxine / day) and made no attempt to tailor the dose to the patient.
I suspect that this would have made Skinner's treatment less effective, but it should still have worked.
(ii) They used very different criteria for selecting their patients.
Skinner had carefully done a 'clinical diagnosis' of hypothyroidism, using 16 symptoms, most of which were present in the majority of his patients.
The criteria for the formal trial were:
At least three of the following symptoms for six months: tiredness, lethargy, weight gain or inability to lose weight, intolerance to cold, hair loss, or dry skin or hair.
So a fat person with dry hair who didn't get enough sleep would have qualified as a patient.
This is utterly inadequate as a diagnosis of hypothyroidism! It is a famously difficult disease to diagnose!
Their patient group would have consisted mainly of people who didn't have the clinical symptoms of hypothyroidism. (EDIT: Obviously these people would have had symptoms of *something*, and thus probably been ill, but they are equally valid as symptoms of mild anaemia, or mild diabetes, which also seem to go undiagnosed a lot. The whole trick with hypothyroidism was to tell the difference between it and other similar diseases.)
If the type II version is rare or non-existent, then it would have included no real patients at all.
If the type II version is very common, then at least some of the patient group should have had the disease Skinner said he could cure.
What I think must have happened here is that the treatment produced great improvements in a few patients, and caused unpleasant symptoms in all the rest. This averaged out to 'can't tell the difference between placebo and treatment'. Remember that healthy people can!
I deduce that Skinner's treatment works pretty much as well as he thought it did, and that the disease he was curing is very common indeed.
Can anyone explain these two studies in any other way?
Conclusion
When combined with Sarah Myhill's paper showing that the principal cause of chronic fatigue is 'mitochondrial dysfunction', and that the action of the thyroid hormone is to stimulate the mitochondria, I think the case for a 'thyroid hormone resistance' disease manifesting as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is unanswerable.
At the very least, this should be investigated.
I now believe my own argument, which until I saw Skinner's paper appeared even to me to be a wild idea made up from shreds of mathematical intuition and questionable evidence from biased sources. I think that Skinner's treatment is unlikely to be optimal, and research into what is actually going on needs to be done.
The problem, if it does exist, is likely to be extremely widespread, and explain far more than the mystery of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia. I immediately claim Major Depressive Disorder and Irritable Bowel Syndrome as alternative labels for: 'type II hypothyroidism'. There is a large cluster of these diseases, all mysterious, all with very similar symptoms, known as the 'central sensitivity syndromes'.
And I should like to add that 'blood cholesterol' was once a test for hypothyroidism, so there are probably implications for heart disease as well. Anyone interested in the wider implications might want to take a look at Broda Barnes' work. I started off thinking he was a lunatic. I'm now fairly sure he must have been right all along.
I think it's now urgent to bring this to the attention of the medical profession and the sufferers' groups. Has anyone got any ideas how to do that?
Edit:
Two excellent arguments made on reddit's r/CFS group by EmergencyLies (I paraphrase/steelman him):
(i) The mild version may be polymorphic, but the severe 'myxoedema' described in Victorian literature was the sort of thing that could be diagnosed on sight (or by hearing the voice) by anyone who'd seen a few severe cases.
(ii) One hears anecdotes of people who can tolerate insane levels of T3. If the hormone resistance can get that severe, why isn't the same problem killing people, or at least making them obviously hypothyroid?
I can't answer this one. Where are they? This is the best objection to this idea that I have seen in three months. Does anyone know of people with really obvious hypothyroidism and normal TSH values?
EDIT: Actually there are such people! They get diagnosed with 'central hypothyroidism', which is thought to be very rare. John Lowe thought that about 1/4 of fibromyalgia cases were undiagnosed 'primary hypothyroidism', 1/2 were 'central hypothyroidism', and 1/4 were the 'hormone resistance version'. He thought that the hormone resistance version was very rare and genetic. I think it's more likely acquired in some way. Or it's possible that 'mild central hypothyroidism' is much more common than generally believed. It makes sense that the mild version should be more common than the severe version. It would be very difficult to tell the difference between 'central hypothyroidism' and 'acquired hormone resistance hypothyroidism'.
and:
(i) Skinner and Pollock together strongly suggest that there's a widespread form of hypothyroidism, undetected by usual blood tests, but treatable with thyroxine
(ii) Anyone with hypothyroidism but normal blood tests is going to get diagnosed with something like CFS/FMS/IBS/MDD etc...
(iii) Some of those people are going to end up diagnosed with CFS. Probably lots, if it's widespread.
(iv) Hypothyroidism causes lowered heart rate
(v) But CFS patients have raised heart rates, (on average?).
Those five things together look like a proof of contradiction, so one of them must be wrong.
I think it's (iv). Billewicz's clinical hypothyroidism test doesn't think heart rate has diagnostic value. Thus there were both low and high heart rates in hypothyroidism. I suspect that there's a low basal heart rate because of low metabolism, but that it goes high and stays high after even mild exercise because of the need to clear fatigue poison. Also, of course, hypothyroidism weakens the heart like any other muscle, so heart rate would actually need to be higher to pump the same amount of blood.