Viliam comments on Open thread, June 27 - July 3, 2016 - Less Wrong

3 Post author: Clarity 27 June 2016 01:46AM

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Comment author: Jiro 28 June 2016 08:11:32PM *  1 point [-]

Being a believer in X inherently means, for a rationalist, that you think there are no good arguments against X. So this should be impossible, except by deliberately including arguments that are, to the best of your knowledge, flawed. I might be able to imitate a homeopath, but I can't imitate a rational, educated, homeopath, because if I thought there was such a thing I would be a homeopath.

Yes, a lot of people extoll the virtues of doing this. But a lot of people aren't rational, and don't believe X on the basis of arguments in the first place. If so, then producing good arguments against X are logically possible, and may even be helpful.

(There's another possibility: where you are weighing things and the other side weighs them differently from you. But that's technically just a subcase--you still think the other side's weights are incorrect--and I still couldn't use it to imitate a creationist or flat-earther.)

Comment author: Viliam 29 June 2016 07:52:03AM *  4 points [-]

I might be able to imitate a homeopath, but I can't imitate a rational, educated, homeopath, because if I thought there was such a thing I would be a homeopath.

Great point!

I guess the point of ITT is that even when you disagree with your opponents, you have the ability to see their (wrong) model of the world exactly as they have it, as opposed to a strawman.

For example, if your opponent believes that 2+2=5, you pass ITT by saying "2+2=5", but you fail it by saying "2+2=7". From your perspective, both results are "equally wrong", but from their perspective, the former is correct, while the latter is plainly wrong.

In other words, the goal of ITT isn't to develop a "different, but equally correct" map of the territory (because if you would believe in correctness of the opponent's map, it would also become your map), but to develop a correct map of your opponent's map (as opposed to an incorrect map of your opponent's map).

So, on some level, while you pass an ITT, you know you are saying something false or misleading; even if just by taking correct arguments and assigning incorrect weights to them. But the goal isn't to derive a correct "alternative truth"; it is to have a good model of your opponent's mind.