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Brillyant comments on Open thread, Oct. 03 - Oct. 09, 2016 - Less Wrong
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Citation required. What is strange about this is that when you go looking, you don't see good studies that track people through generations and show that this is in fact the case.
This idea "slavery is the cause" seems not to be an actual active idea but only functions as a thought terminating cliche.
It could have been slavery so it was.
It reminds me of religious apologists talking about the problem of evil, and how it 'could' be caused by man's sin (causing human evil) and possibly by Satan's sin (causing natural evil), which is required if we are to have free will. There is zero, I mean zero, interest in exploring just how 'sin' causes all the various forms of evil. How does sin cause our flawed DNA which allows cancer? <crickets> Etc.
The idea that slavery/segregation/discrimination has created a very significant deficit for blacks seems beyond dispute in my view. The words "very significant" could be disputed based on how we defined them, but that's a technicality. I'm honestly shocked to hear this idea challenged...
I've cited this study.
It's stated that "African-Americans are twice as likely as whites to be unemployed and they earn nearly 25 percent less when they are employed." The study itself shows significant discrimination based on race in the beginning stages of the hiring process.
Lumifer seemed to accept the basic premise, but was nonetheless skeptical and too uninterested to look into the study. I'd be interested to know what you think.
Regardless, it is evidence that employers discriminate against blacks. And employment is tied to income...and wealth...and opportunity. And that is passed on generation after generation.
Again, it seems indisputable to me that slavery has an effect. Segregation and discrimination, too. I honestly don't understand how it couldn't. The only question that is left is in regard to the significance of the effect. And if there are other factors. I'd love to hear some of your evidence for other factors.
And as for this...
I strongly disagree. People being enslaved based on race for hundreds of years, segregated for a hundred more, and then discriminated against until the present day, and that leading to some problems within that race has zero, and I mean zero, to do with the concocted, magical-causal "explanations" of religion.
How about this...
Man A is freed from slavery at 40 with no skills, no education, no family and no professional or network.
Also at 40, man B has a small fortune, an education, is skilled in a trade, has a large family, a good reputation, and a wide network of business and social contacts.
Assuming the offspring of each man—A1 and B1—has identical DNA, which offspring has the highest probability of graduating from an elite university?
Which—A1 or B1—will be more likely to have a successful career?
Which will pass on the largest inheritance to A2 and B2?
Why?
And what do you expect to change in subsequent generations?
(One thing that could change are laws eliminating discrimination...)
This is about as weak as an argument can possibly get.
Again this is not evidence.
Does not demonstrate irrational discrimination. They did not consider the possibility that a person's race actually gives you useful information about them.
Consider the following example:
I have looked at the study before it is well known.
IQ is known to be highly heritable and highly correlated with many measures of success. As are other psychological dimensions such as the Big 5. Source: any psychology textbook.
Perhaps you have heard the saying "rags to riches to rags in three generations". When I look at my family tree I see this happening many times.
Where I live a lot of the local whites are descended from prisoners who were slaves. They do not form an underclass in any way shape or form. In fact it is high status to have convict ancestry.
Or consider Jews, against whom there was massive discrimination until very recently. They have been very successful.
The idea that slavery/segregation/discrimination in America has had an effect is not in dispute. The argument is regarding it's significance.
I fully agree. I was trying to distill the issue into simple terms. I would argue it's nearly self evident that opportunity is passed on over generations, and that a head start for a group of people based on race could be persistent over multiple generations.
Are you saying it is appropriate for employers to discriminate based on race?
Per capita murder rates are no doubt higher among blacks. The question is what caused this.
You are not being discriminated against (or segregated) as a minority race.
They are not being discriminated against (or segregated) as a minority race.
Edit: Regarding evidence slavery having an effect on current day conditions... Here is a study showing "the 1860 slave concentration is related to contemporary black-white inequality in poverty, independent of contemporary demographic and economic conditions, racialized wealth disparities and racial threat. [This] research suggests the importance of slavery for shaping existing U.S. racial inequality patterns."