MoreOn comments on If You Demand Magic, Magic Won't Help - Less Wrong

60 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 22 March 2008 06:10PM

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Comment author: [deleted] 22 March 2008 08:45:51PM 22 points [-]

I largely agree, but I do think fantasy-story magic differs from our world's physics in one significant way: the laws of magic tend to resemble human psychology much, much more than our physics does. The opening quote of this post is itself an example: to practice their craft, Pratchett's witches have to negotiate with gods, which--real and mundane as they may be--presumably have beliefs and desires that bear at least some similarity to human ones. And while it's occasionally a nice shorthand to refer to physical entities as having beliefs and desires (look, the charge *wants* to go that way/this amplifier *knows* where ground is), the mappings are very rudimentary, and they aren't even a very accurate way to look at the picture.

Even when magic doesn't involve actual gods or godlike beings, it usually interfaces much more "nicely" with human psychology than real technology does; the process of casting a spell often depends in some way on the caster's emotional state, and spell effects can be structured around intuitive concepts with apparent ease (say, a curse that affects subsequent generations of a family--a group of entities that is very difficult to specify in physical terms). Granted, our real-world technology could conceivably advance to the point where it works something like this, but it's still an important fact that it doesn't, and can't, work that way _now_. Until we make some giant technological leaps, being an engineer or physicist is not going to be much like the typical wizard's experience, where psychology really matters and one's emotions have intricate effects on one's results.

Comment author: MoreOn 20 August 2011 07:47:14AM *  2 points [-]

So, magic is easy. Then, everyone else is doing it, too. (And you're spending a good portion of your learning curve struggling with the magical equivalent of flipping a light switch). It's even more mundane than difficult magic.

By comparison, how many times today have you thought, "Wow! I'm really glad I have eyesight!" Well, now you have. But it's not something you go around thinking all the time. Why do you expect that you'd think "Wow! I'm really glad I have easy magic!" any more frequently?

Comment author: DanielLC 04 March 2012 07:26:02PM 2 points [-]

True, but eyesight is awesome whether or not I explicitly think about it. I'm happy because I have eyesight. It's just that there's a somewhat longer chain of causality than if I'm happy that I have eyesight. I have eyesight, therefore I can use a monitor, therefore I can use the internet, therefore I can do fun stuff on the internet, therefore I am happy.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 04 March 2012 09:15:00PM 2 points [-]

It follows that blind people are, as a class, less happy than sighted people.
How confident are you of that?

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 07 March 2012 03:22:29PM 0 points [-]

I'm not sure that's true. They'l just have to support their happiness in other ways. And how many blind people would really be unhappy to gain the ability to see? I don't know that there's a 'blind culture' in the same way there is a 'deaf culture' which advocates deafness.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 07 March 2012 04:47:46PM 0 points [-]

I don't assert that there are many blind people who would be unhappy if they gained the ability to see. Possibly there are none at all.

If blind people and sighted people are equally happy (albeit for different reasons), I suppose DanielLC's comment can still be true, so fair enough: you're right. My conclusion doesn't strictly follow, I was making inferences about their model. (I suspect they were true inferences, but I was still overconfident.)

Comment author: CAE_Jones 28 March 2013 01:26:35AM 2 points [-]

Coming in late, but... This is a matter of debate among the blind people I've encountered.

There are generally three groups: those who had sight but lost it, who would be eager to get their sight back, and come across as less happy in some ways, though there are some who adjust well enough that it isn't soul-crushing outside of certain situations.

There are people blind from near birth who think gaining sight would solve lots of problems, like finding employment or being taken seriously by others. These people seem to be imagining magic, and not how sight restoration and adapting to a new sense work in the real world.

And there are people who are blind from near birth, and are relatively happy like they are, and wouldn't want to deal with inserting a completely new sense into their brain when they function well enough already.

It isn't clear how these map to happiness, but it generally seems that people blind from near birth are on average happier than people who lost their sight after developing substantial visual memory. (I haven't actually sought after statistics; this is just based on my observations).