Brilliand comments on Initiation Ceremony - Less Wrong

49 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 28 March 2008 08:40PM

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Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 29 March 2008 12:46:48AM 24 points [-]

I don't know if a verbal examination like this is suitable of a scientific conspiracy, though. Keep the mysticism and ritual, but give the initiates the chance to return their answers in writing, to make it more fair and reduce the stress factor.

You may have already realized this, but what you do when you're under stress, in life, does count.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 05 November 2010 05:41:06PM 8 points [-]

Of course this is true, as far as it goes.

But I'm inferring something from it in context that you perhaps don't mean, and I'd like to clarify. (Assuming you even read comments from this far back.)

Specific example: a couple of months after you posted this, I suffered a brain aneurysm that significantly impaired my working memory, to the point where even elementary logic problems -- the sort that currently would barely register as problems that needed solving in the first place - required me to laboriously work them out with paper and pen. (Well, marker... my fine motor control was shot, also.)

The question arises: could I have passed this initiation ceremony?

I certainly could not have given the right answer. It would have been a challenge to repeat the problem, let alone solve it, in a verbal examination. My reply would in fact have been "I'm not sure. May I have a pen and paper?"

If the guide replies more or less as you do here, then I fail.

I draw attention to two possibilities in that scenario:

(A) This is a legitimate test of rationality, and I failed it. I simply was less rational while brain-damaged, even though it didn't seem that way to me. That sort of thing does happen, after all.

(B) This test is confounding rationality with the ability to do mental arithmetic reliably. I was no less rational then than I am now.

If A is true, then you and the guide would be correct to exclude me from the club, and all is as it should be.

But if B is true, doing so would be an error. Not because it wasn't fair, or wasn't my fault, or anything like that, but because you'd be trying to build a group of rationalists while in fact excluding rationalists based on an irrelevant criterion.

Now, perhaps the error is negligible. Maybe the Bayesian Conspiracy will collect enough of the most rational minds of each generation that it's not worth giving up the benefits of in-group formation to attract the remainder.

OTOH, maybe not... in which case the Bayesian Conspiracy is on the wrong track.

Comment author: Brilliand 22 August 2015 05:27:41AM 0 points [-]

Do we know that saying "I don't know" is a failure? Clearly accepting the one-sixth answer given by the guide would be a failure, and stubbornly sticking to a different wrong answer is probably a failure as well, but saying "I need more time and equipment to figure this out" might very well be tolerated.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 23 August 2015 03:18:29AM 0 points [-]

Well, right, that's essentially the question I was asking the author of the piece.

This comment sure does seem to suggest that no, requesting more time and equipment is a failure... but no, I don't know one way or the other, which is why I asked.