steven comments on Timeless Physics - Less Wrong

32 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 27 May 2008 09:09AM

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Comment author: steven 27 May 2008 11:04:15AM 6 points [-]

Asking "What happened before the Big Bang?" is revealed as a wrong question. There is no "before"; a "before" would be outside the configuration space. There was never a pre-existing emptiness into which our universe exploded. There is just this timeless mathematical object, time existing within it; and the object has a natural boundary at the Big Bang. You cannot ask "When did this mathematical object come into existence?" because there is no t outside it.

This has been true of the standard (FRW) big bang models since, what, the 1920s?

Comment author: Deleet 30 August 2013 01:40:01PM 0 points [-]

It's called a loaded question. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

I invented a logic that can deal with questions and answers. It allows one to formalize questions with an adequately expanded predicate logic. Here's a formalization of the question:

(∃x)(∃t1)(∃t2)(BBHappenedAt[t1]∧HappenedAt[x,t2]∧Before[t2,t1])∧(x=?)

English: There is a thing, x, there are two points of time, t1 and t2, big bang happened at time t1, and x happened at time t2, and t2 is before t1, and what is x?

But if the empirical claim holds, which it does AFAIK, that BB was the first event, i.e. no prior events, then the question is false. Whatever has a false implication is itself false, or whatever is inconsistent with a truth is false.

I know a lot of physics students and some of them teach high school physics for money, and I asked them how they deal with the question. One of them said that he just gives them an analogy, it goes like this:

What is north of the north pole?

Formalized:

(∃x)(IsNorthOf[x,n])∧(x=?)

n = north pole

EN: There is a location such that it is north of the north pole, and what is it?

but we know that there is nothing north of the north pole. Because per definition it is the northernmost spot, i.e.:

(∃x)¬(∃y)(IsNorthOf[y,x]∧x=n)

EN: There is a location, x, and there isn't a location, y, such that y is north of x, and x is identical to the north pole. That is the definition formally speaking.

The question then is similarly false, because it has a false implication, or equivalently, is inconsistent with a truth (in this case a necessary truth, not a contingent).

Hope this helps with similar questions, e.g. "Why is there something rather than nothing?" (implying there is a reason/explanation, which I see no reason to accept).

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 30 August 2013 02:10:00PM 1 point [-]

I wouldn't go so far as to say you invented it, but reinvented seems appropriate.

Comment author: Deleet 04 November 2013 10:11:02AM 1 point [-]

Can you point to someone else who invented it before me? 'Reinvented' implies 'invented' in any case.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 04 November 2013 10:02:40PM 1 point [-]

It seems like it's... hmm. I guess this is different from what I thought it was originally.

Comment author: shminux 04 November 2013 10:12:28PM 0 points [-]

Nothing as formal as a notation, but a standard reply of an expert to a novice's question "What happened before the Big Bang?" is "Why do you assume that there must [always] be a "before"?" is basically the same thing.

Comment author: Deleet 10 January 2014 01:46:30PM 0 points [-]

Yes, but it is not a formal system, and it's a wonder no one else (afaik) did a formal system for questions and answers.