Viliam_Bur comments on No, Really, I've Deceived Myself - Less Wrong

55 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 04 March 2009 11:29PM

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Comment author: Yvain 05 March 2009 06:17:05PM 23 points [-]

When I first read "Belief in Belief", I liked it, and agreed with it, but I thought it was describing a curiousity; an exotic specimen of irrationality for us to oooh and aaah over. I mentally applied it to Unitarians and Reform Jews and that was about it.

I've since started wondering more and more if it actually describes a majority of religious people. I don't know if this is how Eliezer intended it, but it was two things that really convinced me:

The first reason was behavior. Most theists I know occasionally deviate from their religious principles; not egregiously, but they're far from perfect. But when I imagine a world that would make me believe religion with certainty - a world where angels routinely descend to people's bedsides to carry their souls to Heaven, or where Satan allows National Geographic into Hell to film a documentary - I find it hard to imagine people sleeping in on Sundays. Not even the most hardened criminal will steal when the policeman's right in front of him and the punishment is infinite.

The second was a webcomic: http://www.heavingdeadcats.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/file1126-2.jpg It wasn't so much that theists wouldn't drink the poison as that they'd be surprised, even offended at being asked. It would seem like a cheap trick. Whereas (for example) I would be happy to prove my "faith" in science by ingesting poison after I'd taken an antidote proven to work in clinical trials.

I see two ways this issue is directly important to rationalists:

  1. Is this solely a religious phenomenon, or are our own beliefs vulnerable to this kind of self-deception?

  2. What kind of tests can we create to determine whether a belief is sincerely held?

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 15 March 2013 09:40:24AM 4 points [-]

Is this solely a religious phenomenon

No. People can "believe" in non-religious things and yet refuse to make bets which should be 100% safe if their belief is true. Sometimes they don't realize that the specific bet is related to the abstract belief; but often there are separate magisteria of belief-space and everyday-action-space.

How many believers in democracy would let their own life be decided by a majority vote of other people? How many believers in communism would share all their property with someone poorer than them?

Comment author: TimS 21 March 2013 01:01:08AM 7 points [-]

How many believers in democracy would let their own life be decided by a majority vote of other people?

That seems like a strawman. Most western democracies have substantial antimajoritarian components to their basic laws. Procedurally, most countries have judicial review of legislative acts. Substantive examples (from the United States) include the First Amendment (freedom of speech) and the Fourth Amendment (protection against unreasonable searches and seizures).

In other words, proponents of democratic government don't intend to communicate that they want every decision made by the majority of the citizens.