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Phil_Goetz5 comments on That Tiny Note of Discord - Less Wrong

17 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 23 September 2008 06:02AM

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Comment author: Phil_Goetz5 24 September 2008 09:54:16PM 1 point [-]

Eliezer says:

As far as I can tell, Phil Goetz is still pursuing a mysterious essence of rightness - something that could be right, when the whole human species has the wrong rule of meta-morals.

Eliezer,

I have made this point twice now, and you've failed to comprehend it either time, and you're smart enough to comprehend it, so I conclude that you are overconfident. :)

The human species does not consciously have any rule of meta-morals. Neither do they consciously follow rules to evolve in a certain direction. Evolution happens because the system dynamics cause them to happen. There is a certain subspace of possible (say) genomes that is, by some objective measures, "good".

Likewise, human morality may have evolved in ways that are "good", without humans knowing how that happened. I'm not going to try to figure out here what "good" might mean; but I believe the analogy I'm about to make is strong enough that you should admit this as a possibility. And if you don't, you must admit (which you haven't) my accusation that CEV is abandoning the possibility that there is such a thing as "good".

(And if you don't admit any possibility that there is such a thing as goodness, you should close up shop, go home, and let the paperclipping AIs take over.)

If we seize control over our physical and moral evolution, we'd damn well better understand what we're replacing. CEV means replacing evolution with a system whereby people vote on what feature they'd like to evolve next.

I know you can understand this next part, so I'm hoping to hear some evidence of comprehension from you, or some point on which you disagree:

  • Dynamic systems can be described by trajectories through a state space. Suppose you take a snapshot of a bunch of particles traveling along these trajectories. For some open systems, the entropy of the set of particles can decrease over time. (You might instead say that, for the complete closed system, the entropy of the projection of a set of particles onto a manifold of its space can decrease. I'm not sure this is equivalent, but my instinct is that it is.) I will call these systems "interesting".

  • For a dynamic system to be interesting, it must have dimensions or manifolds in its space along which trajectories contract; in a bounded state space, this means that trajectories will end at a point, or in a cycle, or in a chaotic attractor.

  • We desire, as a rule of meta-ethics, for humanity to evolve according to rules that are interesting, in the sense just described. This is equivalent to saying that the complexity of humanity/society, by some measure, should increase. (Agree? I assume you are familiar enough with complex adaptive systems that I don't need to justify this.)

  • A system can be interesting only if there is some dynamic causing these attractors. In evolution, this dynamic is natural selection. Most trajectories for an organism's genome, without selection, would lead off of the manifold in which that genome builds a viable creature. Without selection, mutation would simply increase the entropy of the genome. Natural selection is a force pushing these trajectories back towards the "good" manifold.

  • CEV proposes to replace natural selection with (trans)human supervision. You want to do this even though you don't know what the manifold for "good" moralities is, nor what aspects of evolution have kept us near that manifold in the past. The only way you can NOT expect this to be utterly disastrous, is if you are COMPLETELY CERTAIN that morality is arbitrary, and there is no such manifold.

Since there OBVIOUSLY IS such a manifold for "fitness", I think the onus is on you to justify your belief that there is no such manifold for "morality". We don't even need to argue about terms. The fact that you put forth CEV, and that you worry about the ethics of AIs, proves that you do believe "morality" is a valid concept. We don't need to understand that concept; we need only to know that it exists, and is a by-product of evolution. "Morality" as developed further under CEV is something different than "morality" as we know it, by which I mean, precisely, that it would depart from the manifold. Whatever the word means, what CEV would lead to would be something different.

CEV makes an unjustified, arbitrary distinction between levels. It considers the "preferences" (which I, being a materialist, interpret as "statistical tendencies" of organisms, or of populations; but not of the dynamic system. Why do you discriminate against the larger system?

Carl writes,

If Approach 2 fails to achieve the aims of Approach 1, then humanity generally wouldn't want to pursue Approach 1 regardless. Are you asserting that your audience would tend to diverge from the rest of humanity if extrapolated, in the direction of Approach 1?

Yes; but reverse the way you say that. There are already forces in place that keep humanity evolving in ways that may be advantageous morally. CEV wants to remove those forces without trying to understand them first. Thus it is CEV that will diverge from the way human morality has evolved thus far.