@Tim Re: FOR loops - I made that exact point explicitly when introducing the concept of "recursion" via talking about self-optimizing compilers.

Talk about no progress in the conversation. I begin to think that this whole theory is simply too large to be communicated to casual students. Tim probably read my analysis using the self-optimizing compiler as an example, then forgot that I had analyzed it and thought that he was inventing a crushing objection on his own. This pattern would explain a lot of Phil Goetz too.