Esar comments on Can't Unbirth a Child - Less Wrong

23 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 28 December 2008 05:00PM

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Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 18 June 2012 06:57:27PM 1 point [-]

My thesis is that the true ontology - the correct set of concepts by means of which to understand the nature of reality - is several layers deeper than anything you can find in natural science or computer science. The attempt to describe reality entirely in terms of the existing concepts of those disciplines is necessarily incomplete, partly because it's all about X causing Y but not about what X and Y are. Consciousness gives us a glimpse of the "true nature" of at least one thing - itself, i.e. our own minds - and therefore a glimpse of the true ontological depths. But rationalists and materialists who define their rationalism and materialism as "explaining everything in terms of the existing concepts" create intellectual barriers within themselves to the sort of progress which could come from this reflective, phenomenological approach.

I'm not just talking about arcane metaphysical "aspects" of consciousness. I'm talking about something as basic as color. Color does not exist in standard physical ontology - "colors" are supposed to be wavelengths, but a length is not a color; this is an example of the redefining of concepts that I mentioned in the previous long comment. This is actually an enormous clue about the nature of reality - color exists, it's part of a conscious state, therefore, if the brain is the conscious thing, then part of the brain must be where the color is. But it sounds too weird, so people settle for the usual paradoxical crypto-dualism: the material world consists of colorless particles, but the experience of color is in the brain somewhere, but that doesn't mean that anything in the brain is actually "colored". This is a paradox, but it allows people to preserve the sense that they understand reality.

You asked for a simple exposition but that's just not easy. Certainly color ought to be a very simple example: it's there in reality, it's not there in physics. But let me try to express my thoughts about the actual nature of color... it's an elementary property instantiated in certain submanifolds of the total instantaneous phenomenal state of affairs existing at the object pole of a monadic intentionality which is formally a slice through the worldline of a big coherent tensor factor in the Machian quantum geometry which is the brain's exact microphysical state... it's almost better just to say nothing, until I've written some treatise which explains all my terms and their motivations.

I only made my original comment because you spontaneously expressed perplexity at the nature of "sentience", and I wanted to warn you against the false solutions that most rationalist-materialists will adopt, under the self-generated pressure to explain everything using just the narrow ontological concepts they already have.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 June 2012 07:49:07PM 2 points [-]

object pole of a monadic intentionality

Do you mean 'intensionality'? (and should we worry that the Chrome spell check recognizes neither of these words?)

it's an elementary property instantiated in certain submanifolds of the total instantaneous phenomenal state of affairs existing at the object pole of a monadic intentionality which is formally a slice through the worldline of a big coherent tensor factor in the Machian quantum geometry which is the brain's exact microphysical state...

This sounds like you mean "the perception of color is a brain state". Am I missing something?

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 19 June 2012 06:10:44AM 0 points [-]

I definitely mean intentionality with a T.

This sounds like you mean "the perception of color is a brain state". Am I missing something?

Again, see my latest comments, on the need to reintroduce at a fundamental level, ontological categories which have been excluded as subjective in order to build the scientific model of the world. I am hinting that, rather than intentionality being an abstraction from a mass of microphysical causal relations, the locus of consciousness is a specific, complex, but microphysically exactly bounded object, whose actual ontology includes intentionality, and for which the standard physical description would be the abstracted one.

That is, in reality the world consists of a causal network of "monads", some of which have extremely complex intentionality, but most of which are simple and are entirely pre- or non-intentional in their nature; but that the mathematical representation of this ontology is the "Machian quantum geometry" of "coherent tensor factors". Machian quantum geometry is not a well-defined mathematical concept, it's a rhetorical construct meant to suggest a quantum geometry based on matter (analogous to Ernst Mach's ideas). The monads are the "matter", the "geometry" encodes their immediate causal relations... This is handwaving meant to convey the gist of a way of thinking.