fezziwig comments on (Moral) Truth in Fiction? - Less Wrong

17 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 09 February 2009 05:26PM

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Comment author: johnlawrenceaspden 25 October 2012 11:56:41AM 1 point [-]

These guys sound pretty heroic, but I don't think they're evidence that the racist transatlantic slave trade was worse than the non-racist Roman world. I'm not an expert on either, though.

Part of what I'm trying to assert is that people are capable of treating other people terribly, even in the absence of theories of racial superiority.

I'm pretty sure that the Romans looked up to the Greeks at the same time as enslaving them. And fairly sure that the Greeks enslaved other Greeks.

But you'd need to know a lot more about the classical world than I do to work out what kinds of racial theories were current.

And maybe they did have foreign groups that they mistreated particularly badly. If we think that xenophobia is a built-in feature of the brain then it would be damned weird if the Romans weren't superiority-complex racists. After all, consider the amount of evidence they had that their system was superior and that the gods loved them.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't worse to be the slave of someone who despises you and your type than the slave of someone who accepts you as a brother.

I just don't think any of this is particularly modern.

And on ethical matters I tend to think that progress is upwards (or at least correlated with per-capita GDP). If we think that the recent past was particularly awful it's usually because we've got better records of it.

So here's a prediction for you: There were things going on in the Dark Ages that were worse than either Roman or early Victorian slavery.

The problem is, I can't think of anything worse. There's something particularly terrible about mass industrial slavery. Maybe some passing atrocitologist can help.

Comment author: fezziwig 25 October 2012 07:50:56PM *  1 point [-]

I wish I'd thought to pick 'Atrocitologist' as a screen name. Oh well.

I can't think of any medieval atrocities comparable in scope to those of either the Roman or Victorian eras. But I don't think that has anything to do with philosophy or tolerance, it's just that Rome and pre-Victorian England were a lot more powerful and effective than any of the intermediate governments, and so were able to achieve greater scope than e.g. Poland ever could.

But to your more general point: modern racism is just a special case of the human tendency to define ingroup/outgroup divisions, right? It's ok to enslave Them, because they're not Us. That finding is extremely robust through history: Greeks enslaved other Greeks (but they called themselves Spartans and Helots), Italians enslaved other Italians (but the victims were never Roman citizens so it didn't count), the Jews wiped out the Amelikites (they worshipped the wrong gods, what can you do?) and French nobles ruled over French serfs (but you can't compare a noble to a serf).

Comment author: MugaSofer 26 October 2012 08:19:33AM *  0 points [-]

Italians enslaved other Italians (but the victims were never Roman citizens so it didn't count)

Romans could be sold into slavery to pay off their debts.

The Romans were reletively free of out-group hostility - they felt the barbarians outside the empire were savages, but they tended to absorb local power structures and religions, granting the local nobles (if they cooperated) Roman citizenship, (which was more exclusive than, say, American citizenship,) and while there was some generic snobbery there does not appear to be any belief that non-Romans were inherently inferior. Once they joined the empire, they gained all the rights and privileges of your average Roman (including protection from those barbarian savages over the hill.)