MugaSofer comments on (Moral) Truth in Fiction? - Less Wrong

17 Post author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 09 February 2009 05:26PM

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Comment author: johnlawrenceaspden 25 October 2012 11:56:41AM 1 point [-]

These guys sound pretty heroic, but I don't think they're evidence that the racist transatlantic slave trade was worse than the non-racist Roman world. I'm not an expert on either, though.

Part of what I'm trying to assert is that people are capable of treating other people terribly, even in the absence of theories of racial superiority.

I'm pretty sure that the Romans looked up to the Greeks at the same time as enslaving them. And fairly sure that the Greeks enslaved other Greeks.

But you'd need to know a lot more about the classical world than I do to work out what kinds of racial theories were current.

And maybe they did have foreign groups that they mistreated particularly badly. If we think that xenophobia is a built-in feature of the brain then it would be damned weird if the Romans weren't superiority-complex racists. After all, consider the amount of evidence they had that their system was superior and that the gods loved them.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't worse to be the slave of someone who despises you and your type than the slave of someone who accepts you as a brother.

I just don't think any of this is particularly modern.

And on ethical matters I tend to think that progress is upwards (or at least correlated with per-capita GDP). If we think that the recent past was particularly awful it's usually because we've got better records of it.

So here's a prediction for you: There were things going on in the Dark Ages that were worse than either Roman or early Victorian slavery.

The problem is, I can't think of anything worse. There's something particularly terrible about mass industrial slavery. Maybe some passing atrocitologist can help.

Comment author: MugaSofer 26 October 2012 08:36:33AM *  0 points [-]

I don't think they're evidence that the racist transatlantic slave trade was worse than the non-racist Roman world.

They aren't. However,

"...if a slave runs away into the forest in order to avoid work for a few weeks, upon his being captured his Achilles tendon is removed for the first offense, while for a second offense... his right leg is amputated in order to stop his running away; I myself was a witness to slaves being punished this way."

And similar punishments for marronage--from being castrated to being slowly roasted to death--are reported from different regions throughout the Americas.

grants context to your statement that "I never heard that the Confederacy lined their roads with crucified rebels."

we think that xenophobia is a built-in feature of the brain

Xenophobia and racism are different things.

atrocitologist

Is that ... a Culture ship name?