billswift comments on (Moral) Truth in Fiction? - Less Wrong
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"Without that ability to sympathize, we might think that it was perfectly all right* to keep slaves."
Nearly all people for thousands of years thought it was perfectly all right to keep slaves. Are you saying they didn't have the ability to sympathize? This is the sort of profoundly ahistorical "thinking" that irritates so many people. Someone who considers his own society's beliefs to be laws of reality when there is obvious historical evidence in the other direction that they never bothered to think about.
My take is that without the ability to sympathize we wouldn't have stopped. Not that we suddenly learned/developed sympathy.
I don't think it's perfectly all right to eat meat. And I consider battery farming to be an obscenity which I'd like to see outlawed.
And yet I do eat meat, guiltlessly, and not all of it is free-range ethics-meat.
It occurs to me that I might have trouble explaining this to some future ethicist, and I wonder if that might be the same sort of moral state that the Romans, say, were in.
It's the same sort of moral state we're all in.
I mock you from the safety of my vegetarianism, while desperately downplaying who made my trainers.
In most societies, "slaves" were closer to indentured workers than the modern conception of slavery, which descends from the racist North American slave trade, IIRC.
I think I'd take a Southern cotton plantation over a Roman mine any day. And I never heard that the Confederacy lined their roads with crucified rebels.
Bear in mind that most slaves didn't go to the mines - and they were often used as a punishment.
I had trouble finding details on the punishment of rebel slaves in the Americas - they appear to have been rarer and more successful in escaping capture compared to Roman slaves - but here's something on "maroons" (self-governing pockets of escaped slaves.)
[source]
These guys sound pretty heroic, but I don't think they're evidence that the racist transatlantic slave trade was worse than the non-racist Roman world. I'm not an expert on either, though.
Part of what I'm trying to assert is that people are capable of treating other people terribly, even in the absence of theories of racial superiority.
I'm pretty sure that the Romans looked up to the Greeks at the same time as enslaving them. And fairly sure that the Greeks enslaved other Greeks.
But you'd need to know a lot more about the classical world than I do to work out what kinds of racial theories were current.
And maybe they did have foreign groups that they mistreated particularly badly. If we think that xenophobia is a built-in feature of the brain then it would be damned weird if the Romans weren't superiority-complex racists. After all, consider the amount of evidence they had that their system was superior and that the gods loved them.
I'd be surprised if it wasn't worse to be the slave of someone who despises you and your type than the slave of someone who accepts you as a brother.
I just don't think any of this is particularly modern.
And on ethical matters I tend to think that progress is upwards (or at least correlated with per-capita GDP). If we think that the recent past was particularly awful it's usually because we've got better records of it.
So here's a prediction for you: There were things going on in the Dark Ages that were worse than either Roman or early Victorian slavery.
The problem is, I can't think of anything worse. There's something particularly terrible about mass industrial slavery. Maybe some passing atrocitologist can help.
I'm not quite an atrocitologist so I have no idea whether some of these things I can think of were actually ever put into practice, but I can think of lots of things worse. I can also guarantee you with 90% confidence that there's a lot of manga (especially doujinshi) out there that do picture things you'd consider much worse, especially when you delve into the darker circles. Some japanese artists have literally become world-renowned 'experts' on the topic of fictional mass atrocity.
I'm not comfortable discussing specific examples without a wall of spoiler prevention features requiring the viewer to pass a mental fortitude test to view the content. I might have mentioned this before, but I've once had an acquaintance bend down and vomit on the spot upon recounting one of my more horrible nightmares. I try to avoid dishing out such mental damage on unprepared individuals nowadays.
Touché. I meant something that was likely to have actually happened on a fairly large scale.
Now I'm all curious.
To hear things so bad they make unprepared listeners spontaneously vomit, not to hear things worse than slavery. There are plenty of those, they just tended not to catch on.
Well, I'm not exactly an atrocitologist, but I have studied the early medieval period in some detail. There are some problems in comparing it to other periods, especially in subjective terms -- the Dark Ages were called "dark" precisely because they left a relative dearth of subjective material -- but here's what I can remember off the top of my head.
There was a widespread slave trade, beginning during or before Roman times and ending in Britain around 1100 AD. It was not racially motivated or justified, as we'd understand race; slaves came from all the European ethnic groups, including those of their holders. Taking slaves seems to have been more common in conflicts between ethnic groups, however. Unransomed captures in wartime and freemen who fell into various kinds of legal trouble could both become slaves; the former seem to have been more common. They generally could be bought and sold and didn't have legal independence. The law codes of the time prescribed punishments for mistreating other people's slaves but not your own.
Slave labor was not usually highly concentrated or regimented (there were, for example, no galley slaves in that period); slaveholders came from all free social classes, and slaves performed much the same work as freemen (though usually the harder and dirtier shares of it, where division of labor was possible). At the time of the Domesday Book, slaves made up about 9% of the population.
From what I know of it, this seems more comparable to Roman slavery than to the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Early medieval Europe was a poorer place than either Rome or the early modern colonies, and its people probably led harsher lives, but in social terms I don't see much in the way of unique awfulness.
I wish I'd thought to pick 'Atrocitologist' as a screen name. Oh well.
I can't think of any medieval atrocities comparable in scope to those of either the Roman or Victorian eras. But I don't think that has anything to do with philosophy or tolerance, it's just that Rome and pre-Victorian England were a lot more powerful and effective than any of the intermediate governments, and so were able to achieve greater scope than e.g. Poland ever could.
But to your more general point: modern racism is just a special case of the human tendency to define ingroup/outgroup divisions, right? It's ok to enslave Them, because they're not Us. That finding is extremely robust through history: Greeks enslaved other Greeks (but they called themselves Spartans and Helots), Italians enslaved other Italians (but the victims were never Roman citizens so it didn't count), the Jews wiped out the Amelikites (they worshipped the wrong gods, what can you do?) and French nobles ruled over French serfs (but you can't compare a noble to a serf).
Romans could be sold into slavery to pay off their debts.
The Romans were reletively free of out-group hostility - they felt the barbarians outside the empire were savages, but they tended to absorb local power structures and religions, granting the local nobles (if they cooperated) Roman citizenship, (which was more exclusive than, say, American citizenship,) and while there was some generic snobbery there does not appear to be any belief that non-Romans were inherently inferior. Once they joined the empire, they gained all the rights and privileges of your average Roman (including protection from those barbarian savages over the hill.)
They aren't. However,
grants context to your statement that "I never heard that the Confederacy lined their roads with crucified rebels."
Xenophobia and racism are different things.
Is that ... a Culture ship name?
I'm not sure that holds. In my model and priors, the racist NA slave-owners are much less likely to do certain categories of negative things, and are actually on the higher end of the nice-slavery scale on account of them usually being too disgusted or other-negative-feelings to bother doing anything to them but the occasional light no-contact beating and lots of forced labor.
For instance, considering that I'd guesstimate roughly 10% of Roman Empire slaves to be privately-owned females, and that of those a certainly non-negligible amount would be attractive to their owners or people-the-owner-wants-to-be-friends-with somehow, then it's not that far-fetched to guesstimate that around 5% of Roman Empire slaves were, in fact, used often or mostly for sexual purposes. This obviously includes rape and torture and whatever other fun things the owners/friends-of wanted to do.
I'd also presume that it was much easier to start off a roman sex-and-food orgy with slaves than with free females that are otherwise just interested in having such an orgy considering what I know of cultural gender expectations/roles for that culture and of the numbers of such free vs slave women.
I've also heard that the ancient Chinese had some pretty sick ideas (both horrible and genius at the same time) of what to do with slaves during their constant warfare, including but not limited to: Training items (e.g. "These slaves have wooden swords, but we've broken half their fingers and wounded their arms. Today, you will be training how to effectively cripple and immobilize an enemy with your ranged weapons before they get within sword range!"), battlefield entertainment, emergency food reserves, literal meat walls (no, not putting them on the front lines to fight; literally slaying and piling them at a particular spot just to hinder the enemy movements and cause psychological damage), and various forms of experimentation, testing of poisons/herbs, or whatever-the-owner-felt-like-doing-to-them.
Likewise, slave life in ancient Babylon-and-nearby or around the middle-east during the european middle age and renaissance don't sound all that attractive, nor nearly what I'd qualify as "indentured worker".
The most striking indentured-worker-like slaves I can think of come from some limited data hinting that Egyptian slaves during the ages of grand pharaohs were mostly pretty well treated and considered important belongings equivalent to how we'd value today a car with integrated PC if that was something common.
Of course, a lot of the above is from very limited evidence and there's surely a lot of just-so mixed in, but considering the current state of modern slave trade and black market (forced) sex trade around the world and its prevalence (and the amounts of money involved), I would strongly favor hypotheses that contain similar horrible conditions in most slave cultures in history on account of not knowing of any particular factor or change in human nature and societies that would suddenly make it more common or likely in our current world and cultures.
This is true, but chattel slavery (the type of slavery practiced in the American South) is not the only kind of slavery practiced in history. Some slave cultures (Greek and Roman in particular) allowed a real possibility of manumission into freedom, or even citizenship.
Assuming chattel (or ethnicity-based) slavery was the only kind is a failure mode in the general public.
Edit: I'm not sure where you got this idea:
The brutality of US chattel slavery varied from place to place and time to time, but there's mixed evidence at best for genuine sympathy for slaves among the slave-owners or free folks. A lot of pro-slave court cases are successful attempts by slave-owners to punish slave-renters who mistreated the property or free bystanders engaging in destructive "vandalism".
Re. that quote, I was referring mostly to the kinds of abuse I cite in example in the rest of the comment.
From what I know, it wasn't particularly common for American South slave-owners to specifically select for attractive female slaves and routinely rape or otherwise abuse them for personal pleasure - having sex with "niggers" was, as I understand it, a deep wrongdoing.
I also don't imagine the american slave-owners of that culture engaging in all that many orgies or the various practices of viking naval slaves or ancient chinese generals.
I'm not sure where you are getting the violent sex aspect of slavery - I'm not an expert, but I'm not aware of that as a widespread practice. Treating slaves' lives as cheap (like your examples from Chinese history) doesn't necessarily imply violent orgies. In my mental model, sex slaves are mentally coerced, not physically coerced. Assaultive rape isn't the first image that appears in my head for sex-with-slaves.
And US chattel slavery is weird about sex with slaves. For example, Sally Hennings is not an usual story, even if that kind of conduct was considered improper. Further, the idea of slaves as sexually charged beings continues to run through current American ideas about US blacks. Consider the trope that black men have above average sized penii.
This is what I have in mind when I say "routinely rape or otherwise abuse them for personal pleasure". I'm not sure either where I implied a violent or assaultive aspect. Playing on the helplessness of the victim and various forms of mindbreak or psychological coercion is clearly the dominant tactic in most cultures of sexual slavery as far as I'm aware.
Well, from the great grandparent:
In general, strangers-to-the-bond were not permitted the same liberties with slaves as owners.
Ah. I'm doubtful that the line between owners doing what they wanted with their slaves and their friends doing the same to same slaves was that clear-cut or actually upheld, but it makes sense now that I think about it - it certainly makes sense that strangers would avoid damaging the slaves of others or when in doubt, since that would legally amount to high vandalism and property damage.
My conception of "torture" is very large. Sure, that includes strapping someone to a chair and flogging them, but I'm not so skewed as to believe such things were commonly practiced onto most categories of slaves unless there were special circumstances.
Things like promising slaves a real meal if they work twice as hard for the day and then giving them authentic dog feed once they're done counts as torture within this enlarged label. Such things were, I'm given to understand, very widespread among various slavery cultures, sometimes as a form of entertainment.
To my understanding, they're currently very widespread in current 2012 slavery (though apparently most people nowadays use the term "human trafficking", which obscures from discussion what actually happens once the person has been trafficked).
There's a relatively recent post about overly expansive definitions and why the changes in connotation they create are bad - but I can't find.
I will say that a wildly nonstandard definition of a term increases inferential distance. And there are labels for the concepts you want to gesture towards - expanding the reach of the label "torture" is not necessary.
No.
Raping slaves was common, and was often prompted by racism - after all, if the kid's half-white he'll make a better slave, wont he? No-one thought they were unattractive, just "inferior".
It's hard to get estimates for beatings - there appears to have been a great deal of variation - but let's just say that racism is unlikely to decrease beatings. And American slaves were definitely raped. A lot. Sometimes because they were considered inferior - after all, if the kid is half white, they'll make a better slave, right?
Roman slaves are the ones I know most about. And while they had essentially no rights, there was no concept of them being inherently inferior - they simply had lost their freedom, whether selling it to cover debts or having it taken as spoils of war. They could not be identified visually, and if freed were the equal of any Roman. Roman slaves gradually acquired more rights as time went on.
Some links:
http://www.thetalkingdrum.com/wil.html http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USASpunishments.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment_of_slaves_in_the_United_States#Punishment_and_abuse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_slave
Roman slaves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome http://www.roman-colosseum.info/roman-life/slave-punishment.htm http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/LX/SlavesRomanEmpire.html
Much thanks for all the extra data! That was some interesting reading.