komponisto comments on The Pascal's Wager Fallacy Fallacy - Less Wrong

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Comment author: Johnicholas 27 April 2011 03:06:56PM 7 points [-]

Mathematicians routinely use "infinite" to mean "infinite in magnitude". For example, the concept "The natural numbers" is infinite in magnitude, but I have picked it out using only 19 ascii characters. From a computer science perspective, it is a finite concept - finite in information content, the number of bits necessary to point it out.

Each of the objects in the set of the Peano integers is finite. The set of Peano integers, considered as a whole, is infinite in magnitude, but finite in information content.

Mathematician's routine speech sometimes sounds as if a generic real number is a small thing, something that you could pick up and move around. In fact, a generic real number (since it's an element of an uncountable set) is infinite in information content - they're huge, and impossible to encounter, much less pick up.

Lowenheim-Skolem allows you to transform proofs that, on a straightforward reading, claim to be manipulating generic elements of uncountable sets (picking up and moving around real numbers for example), with proofs that claim to be manipulating elements of countable sets - that is, objects that are finite in information content.

In that tranformation, you will probably introduce "objects" which are something like "the double-struck N", and those objects certainly still satisfy internal predicates like "InfiniteInMagnitude(the double-struck N)".

However, you're never forced to believe that mathematicians are routinely doing impossible things - you can always take a formalist stance, pointing out that mathematicians are actually manipulating symbols, which are small, finite-in-information-content things.

Comment author: komponisto 27 April 2011 06:24:30PM *  3 points [-]

However, you're never forced to believe that mathematicians are routinely doing impossible things - you can always take a formalist stance, pointing out that mathematicians are actually manipulating symbols, which are small, finite-in-information-content things.

So, given this, what exactly is your complaint? You started off criticizing Eliezer (and whomever else) for saying "The integers are countable, but the real number line is uncountable" - I suppose on the grounds that everything in the physical universe is countable, or something. (You weren't exactly clear.) But now you point out (correctly) that there is a perfectly good interpretation of this statement which in no way depends on there being an uncountable number of physical things anywhere, or otherwise violates your (not-exactly-well-defined) philosophy. So haven't you just defeated yourself?

Comment author: Johnicholas 27 April 2011 07:20:22PM 2 points [-]

I have a knee-jerk response, railing against uncountable sets in general and the real numbers in particular; it's not pretty and I know how to control it better now.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 April 2011 07:29:46PM *  3 points [-]

I'm fairly confident that for your purposes you could live with the computable numbers (that is: those numbers whose decimal expansion can be computed by <fix a Turing-equivalent computational foundation here>), and as long as you didn't need anything stronger than integration amenable to quadrature, you'd be just fine.

There are people who take this route, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Knuth once stated that he'd like to write a calculus book roughly following this path, but, well, he's got other things on his mind.

EDIT: I should point out also that the computable numbers are countable (by the usual Godel encoding of whatever machine is rattling off the digits for you), and that for all practical intents and purposes they're probably equivalent to whatever calculus-related mischief is in play at the moment.

Comment author: Johnicholas 27 April 2011 07:38:00PM 2 points [-]

There's some weirdnesses down that route - for example, it turns out that you can't distinguish zero from nonzero, so the step function is actually uncomputable.

My contrarian claim is that everyone could live with the nameable numbers - that is, the numbers that can be pointed out using a finite number of books to describe them. People who really strongly care about the uncountability of the reals have a hard time coming up with a concrete example of what they'd miss.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 April 2011 07:43:40PM 3 points [-]

My contrarian claim is that everyone could live with the nameable numbers

I don't understand. Those also seem to fall prey to

it turns out that you can't distinguish zero from nonzero, so the step function is actually uncomputable.

Also,

People who really strongly care about the uncountability of the reals have a hard time coming up with a concrete example of what they'd miss.

Lebesgue measure theory, Gal(C/R) = Z/2Z, and some pathological examples in the history of differential geometry without which the current definition of a manifold would have been much more difficult to ascertain.

Off the top of my head. There are certainly other things I would miss.

Comment author: Johnicholas 27 April 2011 08:15:32PM 0 points [-]

Those are theories, which are not generally lost if you switch the underlying definitions aptly - and they are sometimes improved (if the new definitions are better, or if the switch demonstrates an abstraction that was not previously known).

People can't pick out specific examples of numbers that are lost by switching to using nameable numbers, they can only gesture at broad classes of numbers, like "0.10147829..., choosing subsequent digits according to no specific rule". If you can describe a specific example (using Lebesgue measure theory if you like), then that description is a name for that number.

Comment author: [deleted] 27 April 2011 08:52:06PM 1 point [-]

Those are theories, which are not generally lost...

I really wish I had the time to explicitly write out the reasons why I believe these examples are compelling reasons to use the usual model of the real numbers. I tried, but I've already spent too long and I doubt they would convince you anyway.

People can't pick out specific examples of numbers that are lost by switching to using nameable numbers,

So? Omega could obliterate 99% of the particles in the known universe, and I wouldn't be able to name a particular one. If it turns out in the future that these nameable numbers have nice theoretic properties, sure. The effort to rebuild the usual theory doesn't seem to be worth the benefit of getting rid of uncountability. (Or more precisely, one source of uncountability.)

I think I've spent enough time procrastinating on this topic. I don't see it going anywhere productive.

Comment author: Johnicholas 28 April 2011 10:37:22AM *  1 point [-]

Suppose someone played idly manipulating small objects, like bottlecaps, in the real world. Suppose they formed (inductively) some hypotheses, picked some axioms and a formal system, derived the observed truths as a consequence of the axioms, and went on to derive some predictions regarding particular long or unusual manipulations of bottlecaps.

If the proofs are correct, the conclusions are true regardless of the outcome of experiments. If you believe that mathematics is self-hosting; interesting and relevant and valuable in itself, that may be sufficient for you. However, you might alternatively take the position that contradictions with experiment would render the previous axioms, theorems and proofs less interesting because they are less relevant.

Generic real numbers, because of their infinite information content, are not good models of physical things (positions, distances, velocities, energies) that a casual consumer of mathematics might think they're natural models of. If you built the real numbers from first-order ZFC axioms, then they do have (via Lowenheim-Skolem) some finite-information-content correspondences - however, those objects look like abstract syntax trees, ramified with details that act as obstacles to finding an analogous structure in the real world.

Comment author: cousin_it 28 April 2011 11:22:28AM *  7 points [-]

I'm not sure what a "nameable number" is. Whatever countable naming scheme you invent, I can "name" a number that's outside it by the usual diagonal trick: it differs from your first nameable number in the first digit, and so on. (Note this doesn't require choice, the procedure may be deterministic.) Switching from reals to nameable numbers seems to require adding more complexity than I'm comfortable with. Also, I enjoy having a notion of Martin-Löf random sequences and random reals, which doesn't play nice with nameability.

Comment author: Johnicholas 28 April 2011 12:43:10PM 2 points [-]

You're correct to point out that I'm being too vague, and I'm making mistakes speaking as if nameable numbers constitute a set or a single alternative to the reals or the rationals.

However, I've been a consumer of theorems and proofs that casually use real numbers as if they're lightweight objects. There is considerable effort involved to parse the underlying concepts out of the theorems and proofs, and re-formalize them using something reasonable (completions of the natural numbers under various operations like additive inverse, multiplicative inverse, square root, roots of polynomials in general, roots of differential equations in general). Those are all different sets of nameable numbers, and they're all countable.

I would prefer that mathematicians routinely perceived "the reals" as a peculiar construction, and instead of throwing it in routinely when working on concepts in geometry or symmetry as the standard tool to modeling positions and distances, thought about what properties they actually need to get the job they're doing done.

Comment author: wedrifid 28 April 2011 01:24:57PM 2 points [-]

I would prefer that mathematicians routinely perceived "the reals" as a peculiar construction, and instead of throwing it in routinely when working on concepts in geometry or symmetry as the standard tool to modeling positions and distances, thought about what properties they actually need to get the job they're doing done.

Why is it that mathematicians so love the idea of doing their work blindfolded and with their hands tied behind their backs? Someone invented the reals. They're awesome things. And people invented all sorts of techniques you can use the reals for. Make the most of it! Leave proving stuff about when reals are useful to and how such a peculiar construction can be derived and angsting about how deep and convoluted the basis must be to specialists in angsting about how deep and convoluted the basis for using reals is.

Comment author: Nisan 28 April 2011 03:25:00PM 3 points [-]

I know of one mathematician who thinks the real numbers are a peculiar construction in the context of topology because of the pathological things you can do with them — continuous nowhere-differentiable curves, space-filling curves, and so on. That's why she studies motivic/A1 homotopy theory instead of classical homotopy theory; only polynomial functions are allowed.

Comment author: komponisto 28 April 2011 09:59:46PM 2 points [-]

So you would prefer that, instead of having one all-purpose number system that we can embed just about any kind of number we like into (not to mention do all kinds of other things with), we had a collection of distinct number systems, each used for some different ad-hoc purpose? How would this be an improvement?

You might consider the fact that, once upon a time, people actually started with the natural numbers -- and then, over the ages, gradually felt the need to expand the system of numbers further and further until they ended up with the standard objects of modern mathematics, such as the real number system.

This was not a historical accident. Each new kind of number corresponds to a new kind of operation people wanted to do, that they couldn't do with existing numbers. If you want to do subtraction, you need negative numbers; if you want to do division, you need rationals; and if you want to take limits of Cauchy sequences, then you need real numbers.

I don't understand why this should cause computer-programming types any anxiety. A real number is not some kind of mysterious magical entity; it is just the result of applying an operation, call it "lim", to an object called a "sequence" (a_n).

Real numbers are used because people want to be able to take limits (the usefulness of doing which was established decisively starting in the 17th century). So long as you allow the taking of limits, you are going to be working with the real numbers, or something equivalent. Yes, you could try to examine every particular limit that anyone has ever taken, and put them all into a special class (or several special classes), but that would be ad-hoc, ugly, and completely unnecessary.

Comment author: Sniffnoy 28 April 2011 09:58:53PM *  4 points [-]

By "nameable number" he seems to just mean a definable number - in general an object is called "definable" if there is some first-order property that it and only it satisfies. (Obviously, this dependson just what the surrouding theory is. Sounds like he means "definable in ZFC".) The set of all definable objects is countable, for obvious reasons.

With this definition, your diagonal trick actually doesn't work (which is good, because otherwise we'd have a paradox): Definability isn't a notion expressible in the theory itself, only in the metatheory. Hence if you attempt to "define" something in terms of the set of all definable numbers, the result is only, uh, "metadefinable". (I gave myself a real headache once over the idea of the "first undefinable ordinal"; thanks to JoshuaZ for pointing out to me why this isn't a paradox.)

EDIT: I should point out, using definable numbers seems kind of awful, because they're defined (sorry, metadefined :P ) in terms of logic-stuff that depends on the surrounding theory. Computable numbers, though more restrictive, might behave a little better, I expect...

EDIT Apr 30: Oops! Obviously definability depends only on the ambient language, not the actual ambient theory... that makes it rather less awful than I suggested.

Comment author: abramdemski 15 January 2013 11:47:06AM 1 point [-]

The set of all definable objects is countable, for obvious reasons.

With this definition, your diagonal trick actually doesn't work (which is good, because otherwise we'd have a paradox): Definability isn't a notion expressible in the theory itself, only in the metatheory. Hence if you attempt to "define" something in terms of the set of all definable numbers, the result is only, uh, "metadefinable".

We could similarly argue that the definable objects should be thought of as "meta-countable" rather than countable, right? The reals-implied-by-a-theory would always be uncountable-in-the-theory. (I'm tempted to imagine a world in which this ended the argument between constructivists and classicists, but realistically, one side or the other would end up feeling uneasy about such a compromise... more likely, both.)

Comment author: Sniffnoy 28 April 2011 09:50:43PM 1 point [-]

Gal(C/R) = Z/2Z

I'm confused; this is true for any real closed field. What are you getting at with this?

Comment author: [deleted] 28 April 2011 10:05:25PM *  0 points [-]

A mistake. I was thinking of C as the so-called "generic complex numbers." You're right that if you replace C with the algebraic closure of whatever countable model's been dreamed up, then C = R[i] and that's it.

Admittedly I'm only conjecturing that Gal(C/K) will be different for some K countable, but I think there's good evidence in favor of it. After all, if K is the algebraic closure of Q, then Gal(C/K) is gigantic. It doesn't seem likely that one could "fix" the other "degrees of freedom" with only countably many irrationals.

Comment author: Sniffnoy 28 April 2011 09:51:52PM *  1 point [-]

Of course, whether a number is definable or not depends on the surrounding theory. Stick to first-order theory of the reals and only algebraic numbers will be definable! Definable in ZF? Or what?

EDIT Apr 30: Oops! Obviously definability depends only on the ambient language, not the actual ambient theory... no difference here between ZF and ZFC...