alvarojabril comments on A social norm against unjustified opinions? - Less Wrong

11 Post author: Kaj_Sotala 29 May 2009 11:25AM

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Tags: epistemic_hygiene opinions social_norms

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Comment author: alvarojabril 29 May 2009 09:58:42PM 1 point [-]

Right, I get that people fare differently when it comes to this stuff, but I do think it's a matter of practice and attention more than innate ability (for most people). And this is really my point, that the sort of monastic rationality frequently espoused on these boards can have politically antirational effects. It's way easier to influence others if you first establish a decent rapport with them.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 29 May 2009 10:11:34PM 0 points [-]

I don't at all disagree that the skills are good to learn, especially if you're going to be focusing on tasks that involve dealing with non-rationalists. I think it may be a bit of an over generalization to say that they should be a high priority for everyone, but probably not much of one.

I do have a problem with judging people for not having already mastered those skills, or for having higher priorities than tackling those skills immediately with all their energy, though, which seems to be what you're doing. Am I inferring too much when I come to that conclusion?

Comment author: alvarojabril 29 May 2009 10:17:16PM 0 points [-]

Look, this whole thread started because of Annoyance's judgment of people who have higher priorities than rationality, right? Did you have a problem with that?

All I'm saying is that this community in general gives way too short shrift to the utility of social cohesion. Sorry if that bothers you.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 29 May 2009 10:24:08PM 0 points [-]

Quote, please?

Most of what he said condenses to "people who are not practicing rationality are irrational", which is only an insult if you consider 'irrational' to be an insult, which I didn't see any evidence of. I saw frustration at the difficulty in dealing with them without social awkwardness, but that's not the same.

Have I missed something?

Comment author: alvarojabril 29 May 2009 10:38:13PM *  0 points [-]

Yes, and most of what I said reduces to "Annoyance is not practicing rationality with statements like "'social cohesion is one of the enemies of rationality.'" You said you had a "problem" with my contention and then I pointed out that Annoyance had made a qualitatively similar claim that hadn't bothered you. Aside from our apparent disagreement on the point I don't get how my claim could be a problem for you.

I think I've made myself clear and this is getting tiresome so I'll invite you to have the last word.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 29 May 2009 11:44:51PM *  2 points [-]

I hope I'm not the only one who sees the irony in you refusing to answer my question about your reasoning, given where this thread started.

I guess the best option now is to sum this disagreement up in condensations. For simplicity's sake, I'm only going to do comments on the branch that leads directly here. I'm starting with this comment.

  • JamesCole: Quoted hypothetical social-norm suggestion, disagreed, offered altenate suggestion suggestion, offered supporting logic.
  • JamesCole: Restated supporting logic.
  • Me: Agreed, offered more support.
  • Annoyance: counterargument: "Most people are not interested enough in being rational for that suggestion to work; they'll find a way around it, instead"
  • Me: disagreement with Annoyance - I was wrong
  • Annoyance: Pointed out my mistake
  • Me: "Oh, right"
  • Annoyance: "That is a common mistake, and one that I haven't fully overcome yet, which means I still have trouble communicating with people who are not practicing rationality" (probably intended to make me feel better)
  • You: "I object to the above exchange; you're just masking your prejudice against irrational people by refusing to communicate clearly with them"
  • Me: "Actually, it's not a refusal, it's just hard."
  • You: "No, it's not hard, and refusal to do it means that you don't value social cohesion." with a personal example of it not being hard.
  • Me: "Okay, you got me. It's only hard for some people."
  • You: "Okay, it is hard for some people, but it's still learnable, and harmful to the cause of rationality if you present yourself as a rationalist without having those skills."
  • Me: "They're good to learn, but I think you're over-valuing them, and judging people for not sharing your values."
  • You: "Why are you complaining about me being judgmental when you didn't complain about Annoyance being judgmental?", plus what appears to be some social-signaling stuff intended to indicate that I'm a bad person because I don't care about social cohesion. I don't know enough about what you mean by "social cohesion" to make sense of that part of the thread, but I suspect that your assertion that I don't value it is correct.
  • Me: "Where was Annoyance judgmental? I didn't see him being judgmental anywhere."

This brings us to your comment directly above, which doesn't condense well. You didn't answer my question (and I don't take this as proof that there is no instance of Annoyance being judgmental - I may have missed something somewhere - but I consider it pretty unlikely that you'd refuse to defend your assertion if there was a clear one, so it's at least strong evidence that there isn't), accused Annoyance of being irrational, and claimed that I should be accepting your claim even though you refuse to actually defend it.

I do agree with you that the skills involved in dealing with irrational people are useful to learn. But we obviously disagree in many, many ways on what kinds of support should be necessary for an argument to be taken seriously here.

Comment author: AdeleneDawner 30 May 2009 01:38:36AM 0 points [-]

Hmm, might you have been referring to this?

That's not a judgment against less intelligent people; it's a judgment against all of us, himself included. I recognize it as being the more rational decision in the situation I mentioned here as one that I'm failing at from a rationalist standpoint, and am not going to bother challenging his rational view on a rational forum when the best defense I can think of is "yes, but you shouldn't say that to the muggles".

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