byrnema comments on Open Thread: June 2009 - Less Wrong

4 Post author: Cyan 01 June 2009 06:46PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Comments (142)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: QuestionTime 02 June 2009 02:30:34PM *  7 points [-]

I need relationship advice and I trust the wisdom and honesty of this community more than most of my friends. I created a new account to ask this question.

I'm with an incredibly compassionate, creative woman. She excels at her job, which is a "helping profession," and one which I believe improves social welfare far more than most. The sex is outstanding.

But she loves magical thinking, she is somewhat averse to expected-utility calculations, my atheism, etc. She is, by her own admission, subject to strong swings of emotion and at greater than average risk of longer-lasting depression. We love each other but are scared that our differences may be too great.

How would you personally feel about a relationship like this? How should I go about deciding whether to continue this?

Added: We have been together more than 6 months. She has learned a decent amount about my way of thinking, but I have not pushed it on her. I frequently mention how great rationality is (but also mock myself to make sure we're all having fun).

I wish I had confidence that trying to convert her to my way of thinking would have net-benefits for her and for the world long-term, but I don't. Not that I'm convinced trying to convert her is a bad idea on utilitarian grounds either, it just seems risky.

Comment author: byrnema 03 June 2009 12:51:14PM *  2 points [-]

With respect to making your decision, I would advise you to just spend more time with her. It usually took me about 18 months to figure out how I would finally feel about someone, long-term, that I was initially attracted to. After that period of time, differences were either sources of annoyance (or something more neutral) or sources of contempt. If the latter, for either one of you, you're "too different". (Things are complicated by the fact that there's always a little contempt in a relationship, but the contempt I'm talking about will tend to grow and feel more important than everything else over time.)

In other words, I don't believe, a priori, that in order to be consistently rational, a rationalist should seek out another rationalist. You're probably seeking someone that complements you, and pushes you to more fully experience life, and that's why opposites attract. As long as you have the same core values about what matters to you both. It takes time to determine if you share those.

Regarding the magical thinking that perplexes you: it doesn't seem to me that most rationalists actually understand what it is that magical thinkers believe. For example, if you think about it in terms of scientifically true and false, you're probably not thinking about it the right away. Magical thinkers know they're not making scientific statements. For example, it's not false to believe you have a soul. Whatever she really means by having a soul, she does have. That's why rational arguments don't work. I think it's a matter of communication: she's not really expressing what she means by soul, and you're not really arguing (if you were to) that what she doesn't have is the soul she's talking about. Her description of a soul may be naive and if she's says anything about it that is scientifically falsifiable, then she is confused about what she means. But whenever she gives a description that is not scientifically falsifiable, and you see it as false, you are probably interpreting the words in too literal a way. Magical thinkers make the same mistake as well, and there is a downward spiral of overly literal thinking when the original belief was just that there is some concept of self that is related in some complex way with the physical body, that has value to her and her community (religion).

I don't think establishing a rule "you won't try to convert her" is going to work well, as I personally wouldn't want to always (or ever) have to repress what I think. That's not respectful of either of you. Instead, another suggestion: use your rationalist skills to approach it as a research project, but expand your sources. Trying reading books written by really good theologians (for example, very logical ones) on whatever they have to say about the soul -- you may be able to find a description of "soul" for example, that you both agree on. And then the difference may just end up being that she has a context for valuing that concept, while you don't.