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Davorak comments on Varying amounts of subjective experience - Less Wrong Discussion
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I am in graduate school for physics you have applied special relativity incorrectly. The person in the space ship will experience time twice as slow as people on earth. So the person in the spaceship would expect people on earth to age twice as quickly.
I do not understand why wikipedia has this mixed(wrong or worded very confusingly) up so often. Check here.
If we stick to situations where special relativity is applicable, then we have no way to directly measure difference between time passed on earth and on spaceship, as their clocks can be synchronized only once (when they are in the same place). Thus it has no meaning to question where time goes slower.
What they will see is different question. When spaceship goes away from earth astronauts will see that processes on earth take longer than usual (simply from Doppler's effect with relativistic corrections), and so do earthlings. When spaceship goes toward earth, astronauts see that processes on earth go faster than usual.
Edit: Sorry for very tangential post.
Are you saying your argument is true with the strict application of only SR or that in is true in reality?
I would say it can not be true in reality because muons and other particles take a measurably longer amount of time to decay as their speed increases.
I targeted this part of your reasoning. Time on spaceship is moving slower (in a sense) than time on earth in reference frame where earth is stationary, yes, but it doesn't follow that time on earth therefore moves faster than time on spaceship in reference frame of spaceship, quite opposite.
It is both valid when t is measured in reference frame of spaceship and in reference frame of earth.
Thus time in reference frame of muon is moving slower relative to our reference frame and time in our reference frame is moving slower relative to muon's reference frame.
I have downvoted this, and all comments by both parties in the remainder of this conversation between Davorak and DanielLC. I would prefer to see fewer comments like these. Furthermore, you both seem to be incapable of resolving the disagreement, which requires actually understanding what the other guy is trying to say. And failing that, you seem incapable of ending the dispute which requires actually understanding that what you are doing is not working.
Even if one part has a good idea what the problem in communication is does not mean that that party automatically knows how to solve the problem or know weather or not they can solve it. The only way to find out sometimes is to try and see.
Reading your comment I get the impression you think the conversation was a hostile one. I did not have any hostile feels or thoughts taking part in that conversation. I did not get the impression that any were direct at me either.
Also it was in a discussion that was already hidden from the main discussion page so I had the impression that it would not bother the general population. Am I incorrect? Were these comments thrust on the general population in the recent posts section? I did not think of that possibility if that was the case.
Resolving technical issues can take a long time on a message board. So can getting to the point where you understand that you will not be able to find common ground. Discouraging these types of conversations in my opinion will also discourage technical conversations in the long run. I will have less incentive to try and explain complex issues that I am well versed or learn complex issues from another if long conversations where both parties are making an effort(apparently at least) to communicate.
Here is my attempt to end or drastically change the nature of the conversation. This was the point where I could not see the conversation being productive any longer without a drastic change. I guess you think that where I drew the line was different enough from where I should have that it ended up being damaging?
Too true.
No, I didn't think you two were hostile. (If anyone showed hostility here it was me. :( Sorry about that.)
No, only in the Recent Comments list. Nevertheless, we do try to maintain standards here using the karma system. In my opinion (and please note - this is only one opinion) your debate went on too long. I probably over-reacted - in part because the topic was special relativity and I have witnessed far too many fruitless online debates on the subject.
I hope my assholery doesn't drive you away. And your response to my bad manners earned my upvote.
Too true. I am still getting grips on what the community is like.
My hope for the conversation was that the technical part of the problem would get solved and then we could have a juicy conversation on why one person or the other had map that mismatched the territory.
You may have over reacted, everyone does and then you did a good job recovering which is usually the most important part.
They decay in different places then where they're created. If you look at it from different points of reference, it would change.
If you take the spacetime interval, which is invariant under Lorentz transformation, you'd find that the "time" they take isn't affected by speed.
If SR hadn't been discovered, I'd have just skipped that step. SR as it's believed to work is impossible if subjective experience is all-or-nothing, so the belief that it exists that way is evidence that subjective experience is a sliding scale. That said, I don't consider it a particularly convincing part of the argument.
I meant from the point of view of the guy on the space ship.