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timtyler comments on Can we stop using the word "rationalism"? - Less Wrong Discussion

9 [deleted] 19 March 2011 02:45AM

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Comment author: XiXiDu 19 March 2011 05:12:55PM 19 points [-]

LW is nearly perfect but does lack self-criticism. I love self-criticism and I perceive too much agreement to be boring. One of the reasons why there is so much agreement here is not that there is nothing wrong but that people who strongly disagree either don't bother or are deterred by the reputation system. How do I know that? The more I read the more I learn that a lot of the basic principles here are not as well-grounded as the commitment of the community would suggest. Recently I wrote various experts in an effort to approach some kind of 'peer-review' of LW. I got replies from people as diverse as Douglas Hofstadter, Greg Egan, Ben Goertzel, David Pearce, various economists, experts and influencer's. The overall opinion so far is not so much in favor of this community. Regarding the reputation system? People told me that it is one of the reasons why they don't bother to voice their opinion and lurk, but you could just read the infamous RationalWiki entry to get an idea of the general perception (although it improved since my comment here, which they pasted into the talk page). I tried a few times to question the reputation system here myself or ask if there are some posts or studies showing that such systems do subdue trolling but not at the price of truth and honesty, that reputation systems do not cause unjustified conformity. Sadly the response is often downvotes mixed with angry replies. Another problem is the obvious arrogance here which is getting more distinct all the time. There is an LW versus rest of the world attitude. There is LW and then there are the irrational, ordinary people. That's just sad and I'm personally appalled by it.

Here is how some people described LW when I asked them about it:

...a lot of impressive-sounding jargon and slogans, and not everything they say is false and foolish, but in my view they've just sprinkled enough mathematics and logic over their fantasies to give them a veneer of respectability.

or

...they are naïve as far as the nature of human intelligence goes. I think they are mostly very bright and starry-eyed adults who never quite grew out of their science-fiction addiction as adolescents. None of them seems to have a realistic picture about the nature of thinking...

Even though I am basically the only person here who is often openly derogatory about this community, people seem to perceive it as too much already. I am apparently just talking about the same old problems over and over. Yet I've only been posting here since August 2010. The problems have not been fixed. There are problems like the increasing and unjustified arrogance, lack or criticism (let alone peer-review) and an general public relations problem (Scientology also gets donations ;-). But those problems don't matter. What is wrong and what will probably never change is that mere ideas are sold as 'laws' which are taken seriously to a dangerous degree by some individuals here. This place is basically breeding the first group of rationalists committed to do everything in the name of expected utility. I think that is not only incredible scary but also causes distress in people who are susceptible to such thinking.

... this might be a formative early experience for someone who went on to make genuine contributions.

LW is certainly of great value and importance and I loved reading a lot of what has been written so far. I would never suggest that LW is junk but as long as it has the slightest problem with someone coming here and proclaiming that you are all wrong then something is indeed wrong.

Comment author: timtyler 20 March 2011 01:12:35PM *  3 points [-]

I got replies from people as diverse as Douglas Hofstadter, Greg Egan, Ben Goertzel, David Pearce, various economists, experts and influencer's.

Cool! You posted some material from Ben - but it would be interesting to hear more.

Ben made some critical comments recently. Douglas Hofstadter has long been a naysayer of the whole area:

If you read Ray Kurzweil's books and Hans Moravec's, what I find is that it's a very bizarre mixture of ideas that are solid and good with ideas that are crazy. It's as if you took a lot of very good food and some dog excrement and blended it all up so that you can't possibly figure out what's good or bad. It's an intimate mixture of rubbish and good ideas, and it's very hard to disentangle the two, because these are smart people; they're not stupid.

Greg Egan wrote a book recently parodying the SIAI. David Pearce has some very different, but also prettty strange ideas of his own. So, maybe you are picking on dissenters here.