What I have found discouraging in this regard is that you and Curi have been so hopelessly tone-deaf in coming to understand just why your doctrines have been so difficult to sell. Why (and in what sense) people here think that support is possible.
You're not giving any reasons here why you think we are "tone-deaf" other than you think we have not explained, for example, why LW people think support is possible. But that's not tone-deafness. Tone deafness is a complaint not about the substance of ideas but about how well you have expressed those ideas with respect to some norm: it is essentially a complaint about style, and it would seem you want us to pay attention to kharma. We think rational people ought to be able to look beyond those things. Right? With regard to support, we explained and gave examples but, briefly, just to illustrate again, here is a quote from where recursive justification hits bottom
Everything, without exception, needs justification.
Perhaps it is you that has been deaf?
We know that Popperian philosophy is a hard sell and we know that in order to sell it we have to combat lies and myths that have been spread around. Popper himself spent a lot of time doing that. Some of those myths are right here at LW, in the sequences, and we gave examples. But, again, deafness - has anybody admitted that there are these mistakes? Is that deafness a reaction to our "tone-deafness" and is that rational?
All you have to do is to expend as much effort in reacting to what other people say as in trying to get your own points across. In trying to understand what they are saying, rather than reacting negatively.
I agree, but rather than just asserting I haven't been, perhaps you should illustrate with some examples.
People can engage in persistent disagreement with the local orthodoxy without losing karma. People can occasionally speak too impolitely without losing excessive karma.
You seem to care about kharma. If one thinks that kharma is an authoritarian mistake, as I do, then how much respect to you think I should have?
That folks who pay lip service to Popper seem to treat their own positions as given by authority and measure 'progress' by how much the other guy changes his mind.
That you think we are paying lip service is reacting negatively and rather hostile don't you think? Also I do want to hear some good arguments against Popper. Unfortunately most arguments, including those here, are to do with the myths - such as Popper is falsificationism, and come from people that don't know Popper well or got their information from second-hand sources.
How could he have thought it worthwhile to use sock puppets to raise his karma enough to make that posting?
Why do you think he did that? You're just making things up here.
Attacking non-existent beliefs in a doctrine he clearly didn't understand
Tversky and Kahneman believe in such ideas as "evolved mental behaviour" and "bounded rationality". These beliefs exist right enough. If you read The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch you will see arguments against these sort of things. You're arguing by assertion again and haven't carefully looked at the substance.
Tversky and Kahneman believe in such ideas as "evolved mental behaviour" and "bounded rationality". These beliefs exist right enough. If you read The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch you will see arguments against these sort of things.
That sounds pretty awful. Bounded rationality is a standard concept. Surely if you argue against it, you are confused, or don't understand it properly. I'm not sure what an "evolved mental behaviour" is, but that sounds pretty uncontroversial too. Looking at Deutsch on video about 2...
One of the best achievements of the LessWrong community is our high standard of discussion. More than anywhere else, people here are actively trying to interpret others charitatively, argue to the point, not use provocative or rude language, apologise for inadvertent offenses while not being overtly prone to take offense themselves, avoid their own biases and fallacies instead seeking them in others, and most importantly, find the truth instead of winning the argument. Maybe the greatest attribute of this approach is its infectivity - I have observed several newcomers to change their discussing habits for better in few weeks. However, not everybody is susceptible to the LW standards and our attitude produces somewhat bizarre results when confronted with genuine trolls.
Recent posts about epistemology1 have all generated large number of replies; in fact, the discussions were among the largest in the last few months. People have commented there (yes, I too am guilty) even if it was clear that the author of the posts doesn't actually react to our arguments. After he was rude and had admitted to do it on purpose. After commiting several fallacies, after generating an unreasonable amount of text of mediocre to low quality, after saying that he is neither trying to convince anyone nor he is willing to learn anything nor he aims for agreement. In short, perhaps all symptoms of trolling were present, and still, people were repeatedly patiently explaining what's wrong with the author's position. Which reaction is, I must admit, sort of amazing - but on the other hand, it is hard to deny that the whole discussion was detrimental to the quality of LW content and was mostly a waste of time.
So, here is the question: why didn't we apply the don't feed the troll meme, as would probably happen much sooner on most forums? I have several hypotheses on that.
1. We are unable to recognise trolls for lack of training. The first hypothesis is quite improbable, given that the concerned troll was downvoted to oblivion2, but still possible. There are not many trolls on LW and perhaps it is difficult to believe that someone is actively seeking that sort of confrontation. I have never understood the psychology of trolls - I try to avoid combative arguments instinctively and find it hard to imagine why somebody would intentionally try to create one. Perhaps a manifestation of the typical mind fallacy combines with compartmentalisation here: although we consciously know that there are trolls out there (as this is hard to ignore), when meeting one our instict tells us that the person cannot be so much different from us.
2. We are unwilling to deal with trolls. The second theory is that although we know that a person isn't sincere, we cherish our standards of discussion so strongly that we still try to respond kindly and maintain a civil debate, or at least one side of the debate. If it is the case, it is not automatically a bad policy. Our rationality is limited and we always operate under the threat of self-serving biases. Some quasi-deontological rule of kindness in debates, even if it is an overkill, may be useful in the same way presumption of innocence is useful in justice.
3. Sunken costs. Once the debate has started, our initial investments feel binding. It is unsettling to quit an argument admitting that it was completely useless and we have lost an hour of our life for nothing. Sunken costs fallacy is well known and widespread, there is no reason to expect we are immune.
4. Best rebuttal contest. An interesting fact is that not only the number of replies was fairly large, but also lot of replies were strongly upvoted. It leads me to suspect that those replies weren't in fact aimed at the opponent in the discussion, but rather intended to impress the fellow LessWrongers. Once the motivation is not "I want to convince my interlocutor" but rather "I can craft an extraordinarily elegant counter-argument which until now didn't appear", the attitude of the opponent doesn't matter. The debate becomes an exercise in arguing, a potentially useful practice maybe, but with many associated dangers.
5. Trollish arguments are fun. I include this possibility mainly for completeness since I don't much believe that significant number of LW users enjoy pointless arguments. But still, there is something fascinating in fallacious arguments. They are frustrating to follow, for sure, especially for a rationalist, but I cannot entirely leave out of consideration the appeal of seeing biases and fallacies in real life, as opposed to mere reading about them in a Kahneman and Tversky paper.
Whatever of the above hypotheses is correct, or even if none of them is correct, I don't doubt that on reflection most of us would prefer to have less irrational discussions. The karma system works somehow, but slowly, and cannot prevent the trollish discussions from gaining momentum if people continue in their present voting patterns. One of the problems lies in upvoting the rebuttals which gives additional motivation for people to participate. There seem to be two main strategies of voting: "I want to see more/less of this" and "this deserves more/less karma than it presently has". The first strategy seems marginally better for dealing with trolls, but both strategies should work better when applied in context. Even a brilliant reply should not be upvoted when placed in an irrational debate: first, it is mostly wasting of resources, and more, we certainly want to see less irrational debates. I don't endorse downvoting good replies, if only because the troll could interpret it as support for his cause. But leaving them on zero seems to be a correct policy.
1 I am not going to link to them because I don't want to generate more traffic there; one of those posts figures already on the 4th place when you Google lesswrong epistemology. Neither I write down the precise topic or the name of the author explicitly, which I hope decreases the probability of his appearing here.
2 In fact, the downvoting, even if massive, came relatively late, with the person in question being able to post on the main site after several days.