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wedrifid comments on Schroedinger's cat is always dead - Less Wrong Discussion

-14 Post author: PhilGoetz 26 August 2011 05:58PM

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Comment author: wedrifid 27 August 2011 07:33:49AM 0 points [-]

I challenged the universality of a claim ("everyone") and you have attempted to support it by selecting anecdotes. This is obviously a mistake. Not only that, the examples don't even claim what you say they do. Although the second example at least alludes to it none of them assumes that:

THE COPENHAGEN INTERPRETATION DOES [...] SAY THAT CONSCIOUSNESS COLLAPSES THE WAVEFUNCTION.

Say that some people are confused about what the Copenhagen Interpretation says, by all means. But if you are going to throw about grossly exaggerated accusations for the sake of emphasis then at least refrain from trying to defend them!

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 27 August 2011 08:26:08AM 5 points [-]

"Everyone" is an anaphor for the "people getting it wrong" mentioned in my first sentence.

the examples don't even claim what you say they do

They all affirm that (quoting myself) "the wavefunction is a real thing". So perhaps I should have shouted that part?

THE COPENHAGEN INTERPRETATION DOES NOT SAY THAT THE WAVEFUNCTION IS A REAL THING.

But then - although the Copenhagen interpretation features in Phil's first sentence - it's not ubiquitous in the discussions. So maybe I should just say

THE WAVEFUNCTION MIGHT NOT BE A PHYSICAL THING! MOST PHYSICISTS THINK OF IT AS JUST LIKE A PROBABILITY DISTRIBUTION!

The problem is not just a misapprehension about what the Copenhagen interpretation says. The problem is the ubiquitous background assumption of "wavefunction realism". Either wavefunctions are real, and they collapse under observation, or spontaneously, or because of interaction; or wavefunctions are real, and they don't collapse, and there are many worlds.

You can't obtain clarity about quantum mechanics until you at least understand the perspective, historically identified with the Copenhagen interpretation, according to which wavefunctions are not real, and just provide a formal calculus for obtaining probabilities pertaining to the things that are real, the "observables". Observables are where reality lies in quantum mechanics, not wavefunctions.

Once you understand that, you are then free to note that quantum mechanics is incomplete, you can run off and try to make a better theory in terms of actually existing wavefunctions or in terms of something else, etc. But most discussions on this site are starting off confused, not just about what Copenhagen says, but about what quantum mechanics says, and it's because they start from the premise of wavefunction realism.

Comment author: PhilGoetz 27 August 2011 03:45:51PM 2 points [-]

THE COPENHAGEN INTERPRETATION DOES NOT SAY THAT THE WAVEFUNCTION IS A REAL THING.

Then why did Schroedinger talk about the cat in the box?

I think you must be talking about some new interpretation unknown to Schroedinger.

Comment author: prase 27 August 2011 09:42:30PM 2 points [-]

I think you must be talking about some new interpretation unknown to Schroedinger.

Even if Schrödinger hadn't known some interpretation when he devised his feline thought experiment in 1935, I don't think it justifies calling it new.