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Cons comments on Don't ban chimp testing - Less Wrong Discussion

15 Post author: PhilGoetz 01 October 2011 05:17PM

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Comment author: Cons 01 October 2011 07:42:52PM 2 points [-]

Hello! I usually read LessWrong posts, however, I'd never felt the need to create an account because I thought I needed to make some comment. However, when I read this one, I saw that, after so much time visiting LW without creating an account, I needed to create one to comment on it.

We have a strong bias in favor of human interests. But when we try to get rid of them we can see things in a different light. The magnitude of the harm humans cause to other animals really is significant and overwhelmingly bigger than the benefits humans obtain from it. It's very likely that in the future we will increase this gap between the magnitude of the harms we inflict on animals and the significantly smaller benefits we obtain. Therefore, debunking speciesism is a very important task we need to engage in if we want a future with more wellbeing and less suffering.

Experimenting only on nonhuman animals reflects the idea that human interests are more important simply because they are humans. This is a view we must oppose. And banning chimp testing actually questions this idea. For this reason, we should welcome very much such a ban. Campaining against may have terrible effects. The gains that might be acquired by harming chimps would be greatly outweighed by the significantly negative effect that the promotion of a speciesist viewpoint has. All this, of course, setting aside considerations regarding whether all the harm entailed by chimp testing is really going to prove so beneficial.

Given all this, my recommendation is that those who read this write to Scientific American to show their support of the ban on chimp testing.

Comment author: Emile 01 October 2011 09:28:26PM 12 points [-]

Experimenting only on nonhuman animals reflects the idea that human interests are more important simply because they are humans. This is a view we must oppose.

Why? I consider that human interests are more important simply because they are humans. What's wrong with speciesism, beyond the superficial analogies to racism?

Comment author: roystgnr 03 October 2011 08:20:11PM 8 points [-]

The theoretical problem with speciesism is that there is no such thing as a species. The traditional proposed equivalence relation of "ability to interbreed" doesn't work because it isn't transitive: every organism would satisfy this relation with respect to its parents, but we have common ancestors with a squid if you just go far enough back. Every animal (and plant, etc...) on Earth is basically part of a single ring species, except that the "rings" of our species are only clear if you picture them arcing through space-time instead of just space. While the ethical status of individuals must have something to do with their biology, there doesn't seem to be anywhere we can put a bright non-arbitrary cutoff line for that status.

The practical problem with speciesism is that we may soon be getting a lot more "species" to worry about, and it would be good to have an appropriate ethical framework for that ahead of time. What kind of modifications can we give to ourselves or our kids before their "post-human interests" lose importance relative to the unmodified? How much more intelligence can we give to our domesticated animals before we should start feeling concern about treating them like slaves? What if general artificial intelligences start passing Turing tests without any underlying biology at all? Does it matter if their instructions are a priori vs emulations of copied biological brains?

From an intuitive perspective, it seems obvious that human interests are more important than chimp interests, which are more important than pig interests, which are more important than fish interests... but at that point I get stuck, because I don't see how we quantify "how much more important", robustly, as the categories start to proliferate and blur.

From an outside perspective, the non-superficial analogy to racism is simple: the human intuitive perspective on ethics is lousy, often leads us to atrocious behavior that we and our descendants regret for generations, and ought to be supplemented by something more reliable if possible.

Comment author: wedrifid 02 October 2011 10:37:31AM 7 points [-]

Experimenting only on nonhuman animals reflects the idea that human interests are more important simply because they are humans. This is a view we must oppose.

I must? I reject any such obligation. You can oppose it if you wish. But as far as I'm concerned I'm free to support or oppose any combination of experimentation on human or non-human animal that I like.

Comment author: scientism 01 October 2011 11:52:24PM *  4 points [-]

I don't buy the argument that we only favour humans because of 'speciesism.' There's a qualitative difference between humans and other animals and that difference is due to language. Consider:

  1. A doctor tells you that he's going to do something that will cause you pain but that the pain will pass and it will improve your health.

  2. You're locked in a room and told you'll never be allowed to leave. You're told that your family will be killed and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

These scenarios are not available to other animals because they don't have language. The quality and type of suffering in each scenario is dependent on what is said. We can't reassure an animal that a pain will be short or for its own good but equally we can't convince it that a pain will be prolonged or inform it of a harm that is not immediately apparent. These distinctions are simply not available to non-human animals. Morally, they are therefore in a qualitatively separate category from us.

Comment author: wedrifid 02 October 2011 04:13:40AM *  5 points [-]

There's a qualitative difference between humans and other animals and that difference is due to language.

It isn't due to language. The difference you describe is based on imagination and the ability to understand future consequences. We wouldn't consider a moral difference between those examples and cases where the subject was able to arrive at the same understanding based off observation, reasoning or memories of past experiences. Language is relevant in only in as much as it is one of the ways that people can arrive at the models of reality and understanding of the future that we consider important.

Comment author: Raemon 01 October 2011 08:21:12PM 0 points [-]

My feelings are slightly mixed when it comes to medical advances, but basically this. Humans are not inherently special. I might sacrifice a chimp to save the life of a human, but it is a sacrifice, the lesser of two evils, no better than sacrificing a mentally handicapped human.

Comment author: [deleted] 03 October 2011 01:55:48PM *  0 points [-]

I might sacrifice a chimp to save the life of a human, but it is a sacrifice, the lesser of two evils, no better than sacrificing a mentally handicapped human.

I would consider it a sacrifice as well and I do care more about humans than other animals.

Much like if I have to choose who the trolley runs over I prefer it be a random cute young girl to my cute little young sister, I prefer it run over the chimp rather than the human.