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Less Wrong/Rationality Symbol or Seal?
Hey Everyone,
I was wondering if the LW community has a particular symbol or sign that would serve to act as a graphical representation of the community?
Something we could wear or include in things like business cards, that would act as an acknowledgement to others of our committment to rationality.
Any such thing exist, and if not, any good ideas?
I think the letters LW work pretty well if you could make them look more appealling.
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Comments (54)
The London LW group uses a recursively spiraling paperclip.
Why, and do you have a picture?
I found a picture, and not many agreed with my views below, so here it is.
Neat, but I thought by "recursively spiraling", you meant that the spiral recurs on its beginning, effectively having no end.
Also, Clippy hasn't posted in a while.
Clippy's atoms have been used to make recursive spirals. For science!
For reasons related to clippy.
I couldn't find a picture, but I have a badge somewhere so someone has a picture.
But then... lots are upvoting this symbol, maybe some might want to do their own interpretation... I bet it would be better if they don't see the original first ;-)
It is somewhat unusual to use the symbol of the enemy as a logo. It's along the same lines as having a BabyEater logo.
Clippies are a lot cuter than BabyEaters though...
Or are you just biased?
You probably don't want to get rationality mixed up in tribal identification, which is the ostensive purpose of such a symbol.
It has positive effects too. We could try to figure out how to (mostly) avoid the bad complications and do it anyway.
Hell, if we could do this & still get even half the good effects I'd sign up for the robes tomorrow and throw in a Ravenclaw scarf for good measure.
This is a good point, but I do think that there could be benefits. Haven't people mentioned how religion does have some positive benefits, many of which come from the sense of community? I think if we're careful we can get those benefits without costs that are too high.
I didn't mean to suggest there's anything wrong with identifying as part of an online community. I just don't don't think we should identify commitment to rationality with outward displays of membership in any given community. It seems to me like committing to rationality is the sort of thing you do while reading a book, not the sort of thing you do while walking around in a mall.
Even so, though, in my opinion people should in general be careful about trying to turn this place into too much of a subculture. There are a lot of people it would alienate to varying degrees, myself included.
Roko designed a couple LW shirts back when he was participating in the community (link from this discussion thread).
LW-ers are geeks.
Geeks like t-shirts with funny sayings or obscure references. Double win if it's obscurely funny!
(Yay signalling!)
It's super-easy to print out shirts on cafe press or wherever.
LWians will buy the shirt/mug/pin-up calendar of top contributers.
Proceeds can go to SIAI or wherever. (or to me. That works too.)
Yay fundraising!
Now that would be hard to explain to houseguests.
How about "Witty t-shirts: Never as cool as you think"?
"I'm wearing this t-shirt for the signalling."
I think I might actually buy a shirt that said that.
You really think so? Fortunately, we can test that belief experimentally.
Belief tested, willingness to buy confirmed.
I agree. I would buy a lesswrong shirt or even one with the SIAI logo. I would prefer if the shirts were sold on/linked from the SIAI website though, so that lesswrong doesn't seem/become commercial.
I have this bizarre preference that SIAI stuff be sold on the SIAI website and lesswrong stuff be sold on the lesswrong website so that the two maintain a healthy distance!
That makes sense (and is clearly a more popular opinion). What I was imagining didn't seem much better along that dimension though. With the proceeds going to SIAI, and with a spot on lesswrong selling the items, it could be argued that "a healthy distance" isn't being maintained. I'm having trouble verbalizing what seems wrong with that, and I don't think it would be that big a deal, but it seems like in that case lesswrong just becomes a site that draws you in to sell you stuff for SIAI.
I can see that point. Using the small change from lesswrong products to fund lesswrong related things seems more appropriate.
I agree completely.
SIAI shirts and stuff on Zazzle.
Shirt slogan: Replace the symbol with the substance.
No.
Well, I'm told that paperclips are often used for this purpose during meetups.
Please, no! A paperclip symbol has worse (purely abstract philosophical) connotations than a swastika!
This is hilarious.
What about the LW favicon?
I like this idea. Compare to the iconic symbols of Freemasons, the US Marine Corps, or the Illuminati. Should be easily recognizable from a distance, yet be amenable to great detail if wanted - that way, you could create a simple decal, a stamp, or an elaborately carved cane-topper.
I don't have a layout in mind, but here's a tag line:
Less Wrong-- the best you can hope for.
Good tag line.
Perhaps with a stylistic representation of a decision network?
I think that this would be cool idea, but have misgivings about actually doing it. Largely for the same reasons as Lessdazed.
OK, but I also want icons to express my commitment to "rationality", my "commitment" to rationality, and my "commitment to rationality".
You're being obscure again.
Sorry, I will fix that.
Saying "It is important to me to be rational," shows that it is important to me to to say "It is important for me to be rational," so the words show most strongly that it is important to me to seem like rationality is important to me, even though the words mean that rationality is important to me.
So if I put on my business cards "I am committed to rationality", I display a commitment to seeming to be committed to rationality, and this thing I am actually showing my commitment to is describable as "rationality".
If I don't have much of a commitment to rationality but do have a commitment to "rationality", then I only have the appearance of a commitment to actual rationality. This isn't a commitment, it is a "commitment".
If I don't actually put anything on my business cards and merely say it's a good idea and that I will do it, I'm not truly committed to "rationality", i.e. seeming rational. So I only have a false commitment to "rationality", a "commitment" to it.
The problem with icons and other speech is that saying words with meanings merely expresses that meaning, it doesn't embody it, though it does embody a different meaning. This is why no icon can express a commitment to rationality, only behaving in certain ways can, with behavior including speech.
If one is going to a bar, a photo ID embodies a commitment to rationality, and if one is in a cash only toll lane, money embodies a commitment to rationality; an icon designed to express rationality usually won't embody it outside of artificial scenarios such as one in which a crazy person is going around kicking everyone without the icon.
This sounds like a whole paragraph on how "talk is cheap" and thus have little value compared to costly signaling that actually demonstrate something.
If one thinks it about in that way, a generalized community symbol doesn't really do anything and instead what is needed something that ties directly to the user and his abilities and contributions. What would work is a piece of code that provides information on the account used in Lesswrong, other tracking tools and tests that demonstrate rationality. This may result in competition to "karma up" on the site and perhaps some perverse behaviour, but it should be controllable with good moderation.
Some part of me feels like building a customized barcode format which allows for a stylish symbol for the general community that also provides customized information for each user, but that is likely overkill al the moment.
I agree with everything you say here, except maybe your last paragraph.
I also note that when you say " "rationality" " you refer to signaling rationality, which is orthogonal to rationality. But when you say " "commitment" " you refer to only having the appearance of commitment, which is mutually exclusive with commitment.
That is, the meaning of "X" relative to X is not consistent... in one case "X" implies -X, in the other case it doesn't.
I'm not sure this matters, but it seems like a potential source of confusion.
Put quotes about the "L" and/or the "W" in the favicon.
Kinda.
I used to have it as an avatar in another (totally unrelated) forum for a month or so. I hoped that it would spark some curiosity and that I would be able to redirect some people to the site. Unfortunately, it didn't work. On the contrary, wearing this t-shirt made many people curious enough that I managed to get them interested in some high energy physics topics.
Why am I telling you that? Well, LW can use a bit of marketing, I guess, but if this is the case, remember: shiny and colorful things attract more people (and thieving magpies, of course).
Well yeah - it's math. And unlabeled math at that. It's practically a secret handshake.
But without the unifying idea of how an ideally rational agent works, which isn't easy for everyone to understand, rationality is a collection of tips and funny stories, difficult to find a visual for. Perhaps a visual illustrating an obvious, measured failure of rationality would work. But that would still require words, and so would be out of place in other contexts with words, like business cards.
I agree with antigonus that we ought to avoid setting ourselves up as a tribe. Sure, it's possible to do signaling right, and it would be nice to be able to recognize other aspiring rationalists at a glance; but that benefit is quite small because the number of aspiring rationalists is currently so low (or do I only think that because they're all just waiting to buy the T-shirt when it comes out?).
Meanwhile, a symbol could alienate others instead of encouraging them to try to become less wrong. It may not actually make them feel antagonistic, of course; it could just signal that the bearer is in her own clique, and the viewer is in a separate one. In other words, it would show that rationality is a clique thing, not a good thing.
Furthermore, perhaps if we become good enough at making good decisions and having correct beliefs, people will recognize our "commitment to rationality." If they do not recognize it, perhaps that is a problem with us, not with our symbology.
MAP ≠ TERRITORY
does not equal is usually rendered =/= or =\= on the internetz.
Hmmm... doesn't look as good as the equal sign with the line directly through it. Is there code for representing that here?
You can always copy and paste the symbol from somewhere else (hopefully it works and doesn't get rendered as a question mark or something).
Yay! Thanks, fixed.
For a brief period of time, maybe a month or two ago, the favicon for the site was "< X" (less than, then a red X). I liked it more than any variant of "LW" I've seen so far, but whoever actually decides must not have, and unfortunately it wasn't around long enough that many people who you'd hope would get it would get it.
I'd be the first to buy three LW shirts and a bumper sticker if they were ever made.