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James_Miller comments on Utilitarians probably wasting time on recreation - Less Wrong Discussion

-7 Post author: nebulous 03 January 2012 10:54PM

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Comment author: James_Miller 03 January 2012 11:16:49PM *  8 points [-]

Suppose that today two bad things happen:

1) The plane you took to come home gets stuck on the runway for 5 hours.

2) An earthquake in a country you had previously never heard of kills 50,000 people.

Tonight your mom calls to ask how your day went. You respond by saying it was terrible. She asks why. What do you tell her? If the answer is (1) then you are probably not wasting your time when you engage in leisure activities.

(Although I would answer (1) I did give $100 to AMF last year.)

Comment author: Costanza 04 January 2012 03:17:06AM *  14 points [-]

As Adam Smith said:

Let us suppose that the great empire of China, with all its myriads of inhabitants, was suddenly swallowed up by an earthquake, and let us consider how a man of humanity in Europe, who had no sort of connexion with that part of the world, would be affected upon receiving intelligence of this dreadful calamity. He would, I imagine, first of all, express very strongly his sorrow for the misfortune of that unhappy people, he would make many melancholy reflections upon the precariousness of human life, and the vanity of all the labours of man, which could thus be annihilated in a moment. He would too, perhaps, if he was a man of speculation, enter into many reasonings concerning the effects which this disaster might produce upon the commerce of Europe, and the trade and business of the world in general. And when all this fine philosophy was over, when all these humane sentiments had been once fairly expressed, he would pursue his business or his pleasure, take his repose or his diversion, with the same ease and tranquillity, as if no such accident had happened. The most frivolous disaster which could befall himself would occasion a more real disturbance. If he was to lose his little finger to-morrow, he would not sleep to-night; but, provided he never saw them, he will snore with the most profound security over the ruin of a hundred millions of his brethren, and the destruction of that immense multitude seems plainly an object less interesting to him, than this paltry misfortune of his own.

Comment author: Nick_Tarleton 06 January 2012 04:15:19AM 4 points [-]

I see your point, but why should my preferences all-things-considered necessarily track my emotional responses in this way?

Comment author: James_Miller 06 January 2012 07:20:51AM 0 points [-]

Your emotions reveal what you really care about.

Pretend you are under the impression that you care more about X than Y. You are also under the impression that you have never faced a trade-off between X and Y. I believe you have a bias view of your own preferences. I prove this by presenting a hypothetical situation in which you recognize you would be much more bothered by losing 1 Y than 50,000 X. I have thus showed that your initial views about X and Y are bias. The bias revealed, you now realize that you do value Y a lot more than X.

Comment author: wedrifid 06 January 2012 07:23:36AM *  2 points [-]

Your emotions reveal what you really care about.

If I have a conflict between my emotional reactions and my explicit believed preference I can resolve that disagreement any way I please. Emotions do not need to dominate. For example a particularly strong desire for Joe to be dead doesn't mean I actually have to decide that I want him dead.

Comment author: James_Miller 06 January 2012 07:57:18AM 0 points [-]

But for the analogy to work: (a) you were under the impression that you loved Joe, (b) you in fact hated Joe, (c) your actions were consistent with (b), and (d) the hypothetical choice convinced you of (b).

Comment author: wedrifid 06 January 2012 08:24:34AM *  0 points [-]

But for the analogy to work: (a) you were under the impression that you loved Joe, (b) you in fact hated Joe, (c) your actions were consistent with (b), and (d) the hypothetical choice convinced you of (b).

That just isn't true. In fact it doesn't seem to me like a single one of those premises is necessary.

Nick's point just seems blatantly obvious to me.

Comment author: benelliott 03 January 2012 11:25:42PM 4 points [-]

(Although I would answer (1) I did give $100 to AMF last year.)

This is not at all inconsistent. You can perfectly well say "I value my own life more than other people's, but I still value other people's lives a non-zero amount", and since spending on personal pleasure runs into diminishing returns such a value could well result in donating some but not all of your money.

Comment author: [deleted] 04 January 2012 06:38:44AM 0 points [-]
Comment author: thomblake 04 January 2012 07:55:55PM 1 point [-]

I would upvote the link, but I heartily disagree that is the only worthwhile article.

Comment author: [deleted] 04 January 2012 11:59:13PM *  1 point [-]

Heh, you're right. I was just echoing the stereotype of Cracked that it's all inaccurate and hyperbole, and that was wrong of me. Many, but not all, of the articles are overstated but most times the hyperbole is only there for comedic value. Most of David Wong's stuff is really good.