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How to un-kill your mind - maybe.

4 Post author: APMason 19 January 2012 06:36AM

 

It has been the case since I had opinions on these things that I have struggled to identify my “favourite writer of all time”. I've thought perhaps it was Shakespeare, as everyone does – who composed over thirty plays in his lifetime, from any of which a single line would be so far beyond my ability as to make me laughable. Other times I've thought it may be Saul Bellow, who seems to understand human nature in an intuitive way I can't quite reach, but which always touches me when I read his books. And more often than not I've thought it was Raymond Chandler, who in each of his seven novels broke my heart and refused to apologise – because he knew what kind of universe we live in. But since perhaps the year 2007, I have, or should I say had, not been in the slightest doubt as to who my favourite living writer was – Christopher Eric Hitchens.

 

This post is not about how much I admired him. It's not about how surprisingly upset I was about his death (I have since said that I didn't know him except through his writing – a proposition something like “I didn't have sex with her except through her vagina”) - although I must say that even now thinking about this subject is having rather more of an effect on me than I would like. This post is about a rather strange change that has come over me since his death on the 15th of December. Before that time I was a staunch defender of the proposition that the removal of Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq was an obvious boon to the human race, and that the war in Iraq was therefore a wise and moral undertaking. Since then, however, I have found my opinion softening on the subject – I have found myself far more open to cost/ benefit analyses that have come down on the side of non-intervention, and much less indignant when others disagreed. It still seems to me that there are obvious benefits that have arisen from the war in Iraq – by no means am I willing to admit that it was an utter catastrophe, as so many seem convinced it was – but I have found my opinion shifting toward the non-committal middle ground of “I dunno”.

 

Well, Mrs. Mason didn't raise all that many fools. It could be that what's happening here is I'm identifying closely with the Ron Paul campaign, and that since I agree with Paul on many things but not on American foreign policy (and, as it happens, I'm British – but consider myself internationalist enough that American arguments significantly influence my views), and so am shifting towards his point of view. But I think it's rather more likely – embarrassing as this is to admit – that the sheer fact that the Hitch could no longer possibly be my friend – could no longer congratulate me on my enlightened point of view, or go into coalition with me against the forces of irrationality – has freed up my opinions on the Iraq war, and I have dropped into the centre-ground of “Not enough information”. This, as I said, is embarrassing – whether or not the best writer in the world approves of your opinion is no basis for sticking to it. But this is the position I find myself in: weak; fragile; irrational – at least as far as politics go.

 

So here is my half-way solution: extreme and not perfect, by any means, but I think, given the unearthing of this appalling weakness, necessary: from this point onwards, until January 1st 2013 (yes, an arbitrary point in the future), I am not allowed to settle on a political or moral opinion (ethics – the question of what constitutes the good life - I consider comparatively easy, and so exempt). Even when presented with apparently knock-down arguments, I am forbidden from professing allegiance from any moral or political position for the rest of the year. Yes, it is going to be hard to prevent myself from deciding on moral questions, or on political questions – but I am hoping that if I can at least prevent myself from defending any position for the rest of the year, I will, at the end of it, no longer be emotionally attached to any particular ideology, and be able to assess the difference at least semi-rationally. I don't want to believe anything just because Hitchens believed it. I don't want to be motivated by perceived-but-illusory friendship. I want the right answer. And I'm hoping that depriving my brain of the reinforcement that becoming part of a team – no matter how small – gives, I will be able to consider the matter rationally.

 

Until 2013, then, this is it for me. No longer are Marxism, fascism, anarcho-syndicalism etc. incorrect. They're interesting ideas, and I'd like to hear more about them. This is my slightly-less-than-a-year off from ideology. Let's hope that it works.

 

Comments (53)

Comment author: [deleted] 19 January 2012 11:57:51AM 6 points [-]

This is my slightly-less-than-a-year off from ideology. Let's hope that it works.

Up voted because of this. If LW has convinced me of anything is that an apolitical mind is a better mind.

Comment author: TimS 19 January 2012 02:05:31PM 3 points [-]

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.

Pericles

Comment author: [deleted] 19 January 2012 03:18:38PM *  4 points [-]

If politics takes an interest in you it is already far too late.

Comment author: TimS 19 January 2012 04:05:18PM 2 points [-]

Respectfully, you have a very narrow definition of politics. Wouldn't the world be a better place if everyone implemented your moral theory?

Comment author: [deleted] 19 January 2012 04:15:11PM *  2 points [-]

Wouldn't the world be a better place if everyone implemented your moral theory?

I don't know. Are you sure you know?

Since we are talking about human minds, let me point out that Homo Sapiens is a neat ape design but something he is not good at doing is implementing his values into workable systems that do what the label says. He also isn't good at preserving his values in the long run. I have no reason at all to be confident that uploading my current values into everyone will make the universe eventually more to my liking. Nor that my values are capable of being self-sustaining without the symbiosis with slightly different or compatible value systems.

Comment author: TimS 19 January 2012 04:24:14PM *  2 points [-]

If I believed that a universal implementation of my morality would not make the world a better place, that would be a strong reason for me to change my moral beliefs.

I'm trying to dispute your assertion that it is safe, reasonable, or rational to ignore politics. To the extent that "Politics is the mindkiller" is more than a community norm in this forum, it should not be taken as a prohibition on political thought or action. That presupposes a broad definition of "politics," but I think the broad understanding is eminently justified.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 January 2012 05:13:49PM *  4 points [-]

I've had this discussion before, I suggest you read these two debates.

Humans systematically overestimate the gains to be had from political activism and time spent on politics. Our brains where not made for a society of millions and thus our intuitions are not properly calibrated.

Comment author: Prismattic 20 January 2012 01:19:48AM 3 points [-]

I gather that Europe may be different in this regard, but in the United States, a lot of political decisions are made at the local level. There's definitely an argument to be made that media attention overemphasizes the importance of federal politics and underemphasizes the importance of local politics -- many decisions are actually made at the level of thousands, not millions, but voter turnout for such things is lower rather than higher.

Comment author: TimS 19 January 2012 05:25:01PM 0 points [-]

Fair enough. But your position is not necessarily implied by the OP.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 January 2012 04:32:34PM *  1 point [-]

If I believed that a universal implementation of my morality would not make the world a better place, that would be a strong reason for me to change my moral beliefs.

Well knock yourself out. I don't feel that way however.

If I figure out that my morality (lets call it Orange), needs 70% of the universe to be Violet so 30% can be Orange, that seems felicitous to Violet people but dosen't really change my opinion that 30% Orange universe is pretty cool thing and far more than I should expect in a uncaring universe which has laws that weren't optimized for my values.

So what if in the 0% Orange universe is 100% up of Brown which dosen't need any other value systems? Why should that impress me? But aha brown may have some components of Orange mixed in! You may still derive value from it! Well sure, but what makes you so confident that this might prove to be enough to beat out 30% Orange?

Comment author: TimS 19 January 2012 05:06:34PM 2 points [-]

A definitional dispute seems to be obscuring our philosophical dispute. Let's taboo morality for a moment, and talk about "social theories." The purpose of a social theory is to tell everyone in a society what principles to use to make decisions.

So there is a Orange-Violet social theory, which says that 30% of the people should use Orange principles. That can only work if 70% of the people use Violet principles, so Orange-Violet requires that condition be met. Further, Orange-Violet has a principle that everyone must think that the distribution of Orange and Violet is correct and right.

If you think that the world would be better if Orange-Violet were implemented, why wouldn't you want the Orange-Violet social theory be implemented?

Comment author: [deleted] 19 January 2012 05:47:17PM *  1 point [-]

Further, Orange-Violet has a principle that everyone must think that the distribution of Orange and Violet is correct and right.

Why?

If you think that the world would be better if Orange-Violet were implemented, why wouldn't you want the Orange-Violet social theory be implemented?

My objection to Orange going to 100% was of a practical nature. I don't have a high enough confidence in my modelling of the world to impose something like that. Lets say we somehow know that Orange-Violet is basically the best possible implementation of Orange, or Orange+ upgraded for a smarter/better me.

In that case I would endorse Orange-Violet. But I fail to see what this has to do with politics. At least with activities I usually understand as political, such as devoting attention to political life or party programmes or judicial decisions or reading pundits or drafts of laws or voting or lobbying.

Political and social movements are more like the movement of plate tectonics than say having a conversation with someone. Either as an activist or voter one's impact is negligible.

Comment author: TimS 19 January 2012 06:02:59PM 1 point [-]

At least with activities I usually understand as political, such as devoting attention to political life or party programmes or judicial decisions or reading pundits or drafts of laws or voting or lobbying.

As I said, that's a parched definition of political. Deciding what charity to donate to is political. Arguing that empirical verification should be implemented if possible is political. Not laughing at a racist joke is political. Commenting on the appropriate level of politeness in LessWrong is political.

All those things are susceptible to motivated cognition. Much more importantly, all those things function as support for particular social organization.

Comment author: J_Taylor 19 January 2012 03:46:01PM 1 point [-]

Pericles

Politicians talking about politics are almost as untrustworthy as philosophers talking about philosophy.

Comment author: Nick_Tarleton 19 January 2012 07:21:15PM *  5 points [-]

Argument screens off authority, and the quote is obviously true.

Comment author: J_Taylor 19 January 2012 08:42:52PM 1 point [-]

Apologies. I was giving the standard response to the standard response to someone talking about being apolitical.

Comment author: TimS 19 January 2012 04:13:10PM *  2 points [-]

So if I cite a philosopher talking about politics, you'll be more impressed?

The personal is political.

Author Uncertain

I'm trying to dispute the idea that it is safe, reasonable, or rational to ignore politics. "Politics is the mind-killer" is one part community norm for this forum and one part warning about cognitive bias. Just like "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely," Mindkiller is a warning, not a prohibition on political action or thought.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 January 2012 05:59:48PM *  0 points [-]

The personal is political.

People's everyday lives have very little to do with the political opinions they endorse. Indeed people's lives in general have very little to do with the political opinions they endorse. The only exception is that lives tend to go better for those who identify ruling and dominant ideologies/parties and stick to them when they are ascending rather than when declining.

Comment author: APMason 20 January 2012 01:16:00AM 1 point [-]

Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.

Sure, but taking an interest in politics doesn't mean you can do anything about it.

Comment author: [deleted] 20 January 2012 09:56:26PM *  1 point [-]

I can't believe I completely forgot about "Keep Your Identity Small". If I had linked to it or mentioned it I would probably have much reduced the possibility of misunderstanding of what is meant by apolitical mind.

Comment author: APMason 20 January 2012 01:08:02AM 2 points [-]

I think I haven't necessarily been particularly clear about what my plan is: I am not giving up on politics. I am not declaring myself, from here on out or even for this year, completely apolitical. What I'm doing is forbidding myself from expressing political positions or arguments for the year, but not from taking an interest in politics. The gambit is designed to avoid having my opinions determined by loyalty to a group or position, and the feeling that, if I change my mind, I'm a traitor - it's designed to make it so that whether or not I get the right answer, I'm not going to get credit for it anyway. I'm trying to free myself up to change my mind if I need to, without worries about what my in-group will think of my new opinions.

Comment author: David_Gerard 19 January 2012 10:10:30AM *  1 point [-]

I've been rereading a pile of Hitchens. His essay collections are ... patchy. Some hit the spot, some look dashed off in half an hour after a boozy evening (as they frequently were). He was clearly brilliant, but relied on it rather too often.

god is not Great is probably the best thing he ever wrote. I'm listening to the audio book (read by the author) now, and it's so clearly a book written to be read aloud. A master polemicist, expertly bludgeoning bad arguments to death. If you've seen videos of Hitchens debating theists (well worth seeing too - there's lots on YouTube), it's pretty much that stuff, organised into a single philosophical steam-hammer assault.

Letters To A Young Contrarian is very good, if you enjoyed god is not Great and want more of the good stuff. Then hit the essay collections.

Comment author: APMason 20 January 2012 01:14:46AM 1 point [-]

Thank you very much. Letters is probably my favourite of his books, and frankly the amount of Hitchens debates I've watched on youtube is embarrassing.

Comment author: David_Gerard 22 January 2012 07:06:38PM -1 points [-]

Oh! The other Hitchens in the "read first" pile is HItch-22, his not-quite-autobiography.

Comment author: David_Gerard 20 January 2012 01:11:59PM *  -1 points [-]

One thing to be cautious of is that Hitchens teaches you polemics, i.e. really forceful rhetoric. This can be put in the service of anything, and sweep along everyone including the speaker. That he believed everything he said does not make this stuff not dangerous.

If you find yourself tangling with annoying theists a lot, god is not Great is just the source material you needed. However, its arguments are very easy to accept while forgetting to examine and kick them thoroughly. And bits of it do go off the rails IMO, e.g. the section on pigs.

Comment author: fburnaby 23 January 2012 01:55:24PM 0 points [-]

My strategy has been to identify with "Keep your Identity Small".

Comment author: mwengler 21 January 2012 04:34:02PM 0 points [-]

Having read this site and overcomingbias.com for a while, my conclusion is that stong opinions are not at all about maximizing the accuracy of your mental model of the world. Rather they are about influencing people around you. In the social world, it is more valuable to influence other agents to work in ways you want them to than it is to be accurate in your understanding of the world! Or at least the default accuracy you get is sufficient whereas the default influence you would have without strong opinions is way below optimum.

I think people trivialize the thing they call "signalling" when they call it signalling, as if it was some decoration evolution has added to otherwise useful actions. If you influence 20 people an average of 2% each, you have increased your agency 40% over just what you could do alone. Even more than 40% if you consider much of what you are doing comes from the influence of others on you. Signalling, if that is the best word for it, is WAY more important in terms of getting things done than is understanding the world. I imagine this is true because "most" of the world is already understood at any one time, meaning there is plenty to gain using what is already understood with a bunch of influenced people, more to gain than by not influencing people and using resources to try to figure out something the rest of your peers don't already know, or have wrong.

Comment author: TimS 19 January 2012 05:15:27PM -1 points [-]

Until 2013, then, this is it for me. No longer are Marxism, fascism, anarcho-syndicalism etc. incorrect. They're interesting ideas, and I'd like to hear more about them.

Can you be more specific about what reaction you'd like from us? There are interesting and insightful points in post-modern thought, but there's some junk as well, and figuring out the difference is important.

There's a tendency for mainstream thought to co-opt the best of post-modern thought. That's great, because I like this community's ability to talk about social norms, something that I assert is only possible because of theory like imagined communities. But that co-opting of ideas leaves behind a lots of dreck, and judging post-modern thought (or marxism, or fascism, etc) by what has not been co-opted leaves a skewed viewpoint.

But I'm not sure that what I've said is responsive to your post.

Comment author: APMason 20 January 2012 01:12:54AM 1 point [-]

Okay, well, yes - I maybe chose three really poor examples. I think it's safe to predict that I'm not going to be a fascist in 2013. The problem I'm trying to solve is not being able to distinguish between the dreck and the not-dreck because I don't want to feel like a traitor to my group.

Comment author: TimS 20 January 2012 03:47:56AM -1 points [-]

I don't know what group you refer to, but I think that Marxism and post-modern thought (particularly post-modern feminism and post-modern philosophy of science) have insights that one can accept without rejecting empiricism (i.e. finding out the truth by testing your hypothesis against the world).

Comment author: [deleted] 19 January 2012 02:47:43PM 0 points [-]

Before coming to LW, reading politics is the mind killer and swearing off politics completely, I found some success in never identifying as any political strain, just being interested in understanding the positions and communicating them. Like "anarchism (or whatever) is about such-and-such" instead of "I am an anarchist and I believe such-and-such".

Anyways, it's probably better to just not participate in political thought.

Comment author: moridinamael 19 January 2012 04:14:04PM 4 points [-]

I do something similar to this, but instead of refusing to claim a political ideology, I simply observe my own recent behavior, inventory my own positions on the relevant issues, and ask myself, "From the outside, what part of the political spectrum does it look like I belong to?" This way I avoid identifying internally with any position.

Incidentally, in Social Security discussions and the like, people usually stop listening to me at around the part in the conversation where I mention that I believe that superintelligent machines will either destroy or save humanity before any of us reach retirement age.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 20 January 2012 03:35:15AM -1 points [-]

I simply observe my own recent behavior, inventory my own positions on the relevant issues, and ask myself, "From the outside, what part of the political spectrum does it look like I belong to?"

Have you considered using measurement tools such as the Political Compass?