James_Miller comments on How would you talk a stranger off the ledge?

Comment author: [deleted] 23 January 2012 04:39:46PM * 5 points [-]

Explain that suicide might cause them to miss out on a Utopian Singularity.

Don't. Unless they are already Singularitarians. You'll just come across as weird.

MoreOn: I have no idea what you might say, but unless you are close to both of them and know their circumstances well, I don't see how you could help. (I'll be watching the thread to see what others have to say.) How out-of-the-blue offers of advice or help from near-strangers are taken will depend a lot on their current mood and unless you can accurately read that I'm not sure you would be doing much good. Of course grab all chances that present naturally to be nice and supportive to them, maybe motivate common friends who are close to them to talk to them etc.

Comment author: Desrtopa 23 January 2012 04:17:37PM 11 points [-]

Just because something is a rational reason to avoid suicide doesn't mean that it's persuasive. If there's any advantage to offering a proposition from which the listener is several steps of inferential distance removed, it's that it's distracting, but a person on the verge of suicide is not likely to be in a mood to be attentive.

Comment author: James_Miller 23 January 2012 04:48:50PM -1 points [-]

What about explaining that within their lifetime technology might great improve the quality of their life

Comment author: Desrtopa 23 January 2012 05:30:20PM * 1 point [-]

As with the previous, it depends on the person, but if you don't know that this is the sort of argument they're already sympathetic to, this is probably not a good approach.

Comment author: Vaniver 23 January 2012 07:08:37PM * 0 points [-]

Suicidal people rarely have technology problems, and when they do, that's the most popular form of suicide. They have people problems, and it is in no way clear that technological growth will help with those.

Comment author: James_Miller 23 January 2012 07:31:15PM 3 points [-]

Sexbots, I predict, will mitigate the "people problems" of a huge number of men.

Comment author: TimS 24 January 2012 07:48:40PM 1 point [-]

That's interesting. I would predict the exact opposite. The improvement from self-gratification to sexbot is not aimed at the deficiency that I would label "people problems."

Sufficiently wealth people already get all the sex they want to pay for. That's not evidence that the wealthy do not suffer from people problems.

Comment author: James_Miller 25 January 2012 01:37:25AM 0 points [-]

Sexbots will be to people problems as candy is to hunger.

Comment author: TimS 25 January 2012 01:47:57AM 0 points [-]

That statement I could agree with, but I think it contradicts your earlier assertion (depending a large amount on what you meant by "mitigate").

Comment author: James_Miller 23 January 2012 07:35:00PM -2 points [-]

More likely, they have told you that they are contemplating suicide because they want you to pay a huge amount of attention to them. A way to signal that you will do this might be to start talking about something you will clearly have to explain in great detail over a long period of time.

Comment author: Desrtopa 23 January 2012 07:38:19PM 1 point [-]

Not all attention is equally good attention, even when you're suicidal.

Comment author: James_Miller 23 January 2012 07:54:43PM -1 points [-]

It's not just attention from anyone, it's attention from the person you told was suicidal. Plus, if you attempt suicide to get attention you really, really want attention.

Comment author: Desrtopa 23 January 2012 08:47:06PM 12 points [-]

Which doesn't mean that any attention whatsoever that they receive will fail to disappoint.

If a person encounters a stranger who tries to talk them down, the scenario MoreOn originally brought up, and they get someone who tries to explain to them the principles of singularitarianism, then unless they're a really unusual person, they got a crap draw. Roshni was right, right or wrong, singularitarianism is weird. An ordinary person is not going to want to be consoled in the depths of their suicidal depression by this strange, outside-tribe person. While a person is suffering suicidal depression is the last situation in which you should be trying to introduce someone to singularitarian ideas, and the last situation in which they are likely to want to hear it. They're liable to pattern match you as some crazy cultist person, and you'll be about as comforting as someone who's trying to pick them up by telling them the good news of Scientology; not just insensitive, but predatory given their emotional state.

Honestly, I've wanted to avoid being confrontational about this, but since you're pushing the issue, I'm just going to say it flat out. As someone who's suffered suicidal bouts in the past, has coaxed other people down before, and has such an alarming number of acquaintances who suffer from bouts of suicidal depression that I've made a point of familiarizing myself with the appropriate protocol for dealing with it, the advice you're offering is some of the worst I've ever heard.

Comment author: James_Miller 23 January 2012 08:56:28PM 7 points [-]

I'm genuinely glad I pushed this issue so I could get your informed opinion.

Comment author: duckduckMOO 24 January 2012 04:03:00PM * 1 point [-]

100% disagree. You're generalising from a few examples. Option theory is questionable (depending on the person) but the long term hope offered by the singularity (the world doesn't have to be this way forever is kind of a big deal for people who think the world is shit), as well as the concrete option of trying medication provide hope.

Not all suicides are anguished can't take this any more. Some are see no acceptable possbilities.

There are plenty of people around to hand out hugs and cry and bla bla bla. relatively few are actually going to respect, take seriously and care enough about a random stranger to take the attitude of "It's your choice but is there anything you've missed?" rather than the usual shit which I have three (edit: just remembered suspected 4th) counts of people for whom this did/partially did/nearly sent them over the edge.

Comparitive advantage, especially if you're not particularly cuddly makes this an excellent strategy. Someone has to do it or people will literally be killing themselves for lack of information.

Also, he really doesn't sound predatory (that is post edit. I didn't see it pre.)

I'm starting to suspect a selection effect. Most people make an excuse/parrot the usual shit/make a show of caring. Agreeable/shit-eating folks don't mind and are even comforted. people with some dignity or aversion to bullshit are liable to be sent over the edge. Agreeable folks are more likely to talk about it (also I presume on average less likely to kill selves, based on evidence of talking to you, because lower threshold for talking to you so positive results with them are overrepresented.

Comment author: Desrtopa 24 January 2012 04:28:35PM 2 points [-]

Do you have any examples of this strategy ever working?

If you know the person you're dealing with well, you can employ strategies that you wouldn't use with most people. For example, I promised one person that if I ever really believed that she were better off dead than alive, I'd assist her suicide, and she found this very comforting. This is not something I would ever recommend saying to a stranger or an acquaintance with whom you are not close.

And James Miller doesn't sound predatory in that comment to me (and didn't before editing either,) but the issue isn't whether you or I would find it predatory, the issue is whether a person who is in a highly emotional state of mind, far from their most rational, and whose familiarity with the ideas being presented most likely rests entirely on Hollywood movies, would find it predatory.

You can provide all the explanations you want for why this is a good argument, but the fact is that people do not consistently operate on strength-of-argument, especially when they're suicidally depressed.

Sometimes, having your seatbelt unbuckled can save your life, because you can get thrown to safety from the wreckage of the car. Sometimes, having an airbag deploy can kill you. But if you're not in a position to predict specific cases in advance, you always want to take the options that maximize your chances. As See said elsewhere in this disccusion, the advice MoreOn received in high school is distilled professional expertise, and you'd better have some damned strong evidence before setting it aside.

Comment author: duckduckMOO 24 January 2012 05:39:22PM * 0 points [-]

One case were I'm pretty sure it "worked" and a few with positive feedback but not sure they were real risks.

"For example, I promised one person that if I ever really believed that she were better off dead than alive, I'd assist her suicide, and she found this very comforting. This is not something I would ever recommend saying to a stranger or an acquaintance with whom you are not close."

Now that would be wierd.

"who is in a highly emotional state of mind, far from their most rational" Where is this coming from? As far as I can tell "Suicidal people aren't rational" is mostly meme. Suicidal people aren't operating at anywhere near full capacity is much closer. Of the suicidal folks I've known they've all been less sensitive/more tired rather than emotional. I'll add that it's a harmful meme because it stops people seeking help because they don't think anyone will take them seriously (which is a pretty accurate generalisation.)

Sure, if i think they're an idiot that's likely to be feeling vulnerable (which are unrelated) i'd stay away from anything that could be interpreted as predatory but I don't think this is the rule. Personally I get a predatory vibe from the whole reciting lines rather than talking to people thing.

I think you're missing the fact that he doesn't think he can sound sincere. "like I'm following a bad movie script." Is it not obvious that there's a large class of people who when soliciting advice about suicide don't want to think the person they're talking to is going through the motions?

"But if you're not in a position to predict specific cases in advance, you always want to take the options that maximize your chances."

Yeah but once you're actually there, if the prediction you made in advance was wrong (even if was the best you could have made) drop it.

My default strategy is the above. Otherwise I expect the person I am talking to will feel like I am throwing a wall of protocol up between us. I'd heard this complaint from depressed/suicidal people plenty of times and personally when I was considering suicide I thought it would be pointless to talk to anyone because a) they wouldn't empathise: protocol wall, and I wouldn't be able to bounce ideas off them because they'd be too scared of encouraging me + assume I wasn't rational. Definitely made it worse.

Is your experience of histrionically inclined rather than numbness inclined types? I am very much optimising for the second class because I am only familiar with them and assume they make up the majority of suicidal folks.

"distilled professional expertise" certainly consists of long and fancy words but what does it mean other than "protocol?"

I suppose I might be abnormal in this respect but it works for me, and there seems to be a significant amount of me-like-ness clustered on less wrong so I expect other people could make it work too.

Of the three actual self-terminations I'm familiar with 2/3 were made worse by the not taking them seriously and lack of respect, assumptions of irrationality etc that go with the default strategies and mindset. Specifically the guy on less wrong, and another guy whose suicide note/book you can read if you google two arms and a head. Good read. The third just never talked to anyone which I assume was partially a result of not wanting the usual attitudes people take towards suicidal people though I have no evidence for this other than the people they could have talked to and the fact they didn't.

By the way Suicide isn't the main tragedy of suicide. The life where suicide is an attractive option seems attractive is the tragedy. Tip of the iceberg.

The worst that can happen with this strategy is you don't think of anything. So basically the cost is the oppurtunity cost of not using the other strategy (which might be negative.)

edit: oh and if OP is reading, you can probably train yourself not to fidget and reduce awkwardness and fake or even do extroversion (in decreasing order of importance.

Comment author: Desrtopa 24 January 2012 07:47:40PM * 2 points [-]

Where is this coming from? As far as I can tell "Suicidal people aren't rational" is mostly meme. Suicidal people aren't operating at anywhere near full capacity is much closer. Of the suicidal folks I've known they've all been less sensitive/more tired rather than emotional. I'll add that it's a harmful meme because it stops people seeking help because they don't think anyone will take them seriously (which is a pretty accurate generalisation.)

It's coming from the word of psychologists who've made depression the focus of their study, from my own experience with suicidal contemplations, and that of all the suicidal people I've dealt with.

Suicidal people are not necessarily histrionic; more often (if they're legitimately suicidal) they are, as you said, numb, and have a muted affect. But that doesn't mean that their rationality isn't being affected. I know a person who has spiraled deeper and deeper into depression since I first met her, and been able to see her go from a particularly sharp witted person with whom I could discuss pretty much anything to someone who, while not unintelligent, has little energy to make use of her mental faculties and makes consistently irrational decisions.

It's important to take suicidal people seriously, but also to keep in mind that they're in a particularly vulnerable state, and "taking someone seriously" has very different connotations outside the LW social cluster, where we have social norms that encourage active argument, don't frame correcting others as a status challenge, etc. If a person who's contemplating suicide is talking to you, listen. People who really listen to what you have to say, who're completely receptive and aren't impatiently waiting for a convenient place where they can turn the conversation the way they want are in much shorter supply than people who'll talk at you, particularly when you're socially isolated as many suicidal people are. "Listen, be supportive, don't argue" is not an incitement not to take someone seriously. There should be no point where you feel like you're following a bad script, because you should be listening and responding in as sincere a way as you can without being confrontational.

What suicidal people are usually in need of is a sympathetic, supportive social connection, not someone who'll talk at or argue with them. This is where a lot of people fail in dealing with suicidal people; they see a "protocol wall" as you put it, usually panic, and try and run through a script of things they're "supposed" to say, and so the suicidal person doesn't feel like they've managed to effectively communicate, they've just been talked at.

continue this thread »

Comment author: MixedNuts 24 January 2012 07:31:32PM 1 point [-]

You've brought up option theory as an argument against suicide already. Stop that. If I tortured you until you sold all your stocks, you'd damn well sell them immediately.

Comment author: James_Miller 25 January 2012 01:43:24AM 0 points [-]

There must be some lag between when you start torturing me and when I sell my stocks or I would never get tortured. My understanding of option theory might increase this lag by delaying when I give in to torture.

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