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scientism comments on I've had it with those dark rumours about our culture rigorously suppressing opinions - Less Wrong Discussion
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I can think of a couple of possibilities that are difficult to discuss (although perhaps not here):
Multiparty electoral democracy has no real utility, confers no legitimacy and doesn't satisfy any primal urge for freedom laying dormant in non-Western peoples. "Democracy" as a concept is mainly used in international politics as a weapon to suppress other political systems through sanctions and military action. When a country becomes "democratic" by holding elections, it's really just signalling its compliance with the West. The current period of liberal democratic triumphalism has created an intellectual Dark Ages of political thought. There are many valid forms of governance that don't involved voting. Moreover, so-called "authoritarianism" has a proven track record for development.
"Free speech" is a luxury of hegemonic powers. Countries that are trying to self-determine their own political development necessarily have to suppress ideas that are backed up by the military and economic might of Western hegemony. Since multiparty elections don't express the innate yearning of every human for freedom but rather compliance with Western power, whenever you see somebody in another culture expressing a desire for elections and other Western political "rights", you should be extremely wary of their motives. They're really signalling their willingness to sell out their own culture for power. They're probably every bit as treacherous as the "authoritarian regime" in that country claims them to be. If you truly believe in the right to self-determination, you should support crackdowns on certain dissidents, since the marketplace for ideas has such a strong bias in favour of the current hegemonic power.
I think the most important feature of government is that it handle regime changes well and indefinitely. Authoritarianism would have to be awfully good at development to make up for increased intermittent revolutions and civil wars. I leave it to Steve Jobs and his ilk to handle development.
Who exactly, as in the class of persons doing it, is trying to self-determine what exactly?
What is "their own culture", who determines it and how does it figure in more or less reflection-heavy utility functions, especially given the heavy cost you approve of?
EDIT: I notice that you, as some of your comments would imply, you simply don't care about the lives and happiness of people who don't have long-term goals ("Life's Great Adventure"... bah). In this case we might just be having a genuine clash of values and can't convince each other about any moral judgment here.
I don't, because I'm more or less imperialist, and neo-colonialist too. I still identify as a socialist and to a lesser extent as a liberal.
Firstly, I was giving a quick caricature of some topics that tend to be "suppressed," rather than expressing my own beliefs as I would defend them. Both points are somewhat inspired by contemporary Chinese political philosophy (the first being inspired by attempts to modernise Confucian political philosophy and the second being inspired by the position the Chinese government sometimes expresses on political censorship).
I would take the "class of persons" to be part of the state apparatus, attempting to determine the fate and development of the country as a whole. On this line of reasoning, the Western approach of valuing individual interests above all else and seeing the relationship between state and society as principally antagonistic is rejected. The state is an organic part of society, analogous to its nervous system, and its interests can be taken at face value provided it meets certain criteria. There is a reciprocal relationship between the individual and society; rather than society being seen merely as a collection of autonomous individuals in primarily antagonistic relationship with one another and the state, society determines individual interests and individuals, in turn, determine the kind of society we have. The state, therefore, must be as interested in guiding individual interests as it is in responding to them.
Here's what I believe: I believe that the Western political tradition is almost entirely wrongheaded, primarily because it's based on wrongheaded philosophical ideas that misrepresent the nature of society and of the individual in addition to being morally inept, and I think alternatives are worth studying. I'm more sure of the negative thesis than any positive account I could give.
On my previous comment: I care about the lives and happiness of people who don't have long-term goals, I just don't think we need to encouraged them to live forever if they don't want to.
Okay, so you assign great value to certain complex systems that have fuzzy definitions and borders, are completely unlike any individual and are frequently damaging (if without hostile intent as we understand it) to said individual. Me, I don't care about such a system on its own (whether you call it "State" or "Nation" - note that "Nation" can also be defined as a system of an entirely different type) any more than I would care about an UFAI. In general, I don't assign inherent value to any pattern I have literally no possibility of sympathizing with.
Also:
So you suggest that there's no relationship between this fairly unique political tradition and the Western culture's* fairly unique success (and, to be fair, unique disasters which were often "outsourced" to places like China and Russia) in the last 400 years?
*Using the broadest possible definitions of "Western" and "culture", of course.
Yeah, I don't see anything problematic about discussing these here, except that they're about politics.
Holy Moldbug I swear I get giddy at the very idea of a critical rationalist discussion about democracy on LessWrong! Please someone who has done some heavy lifting on the subject make a post about it!
From the contrary position, I totally agree that this would be an interesting discussion.
I don't think this is likely to have good consequence if it happens in a public forum. However, if a private mailing list for this was being organized, I'd be interested in participating.
Be careful with that around political scientists. I get the impression that some of them define democracy as everything that is good in the world. If you find something else good, they'll just redefine democracy to include it.
Either my model is wrong, or this story is false.
I've heard of lots of academic research into what is driving economic growth in places like China. They don't tend to just label whatever they've found as "democracy."
This is why I said some. I'm aware that not all or even most political scientists do this. However, my impression is that there are some, and I've had my impressions confirmed talking with people more knowledgeable of the field than I.
(Also, looking into the factors driving growth in China is somewhere in the fuzzy gray area between economics and political science. Even if I were saying that most political scientists committed this error, I could easily attribute your counterexample to the influence to economics. But that's not what I'm saying. But it still seems plausible that economists had an influence there.)