You're looking at Less Wrong's discussion board. This includes all posts, including those that haven't been promoted to the front page yet. For more information, see About Less Wrong.

Prismattic comments on I've had it with those dark rumours about our culture rigorously suppressing opinions - Less Wrong Discussion

26 Post author: Multiheaded 25 January 2012 05:43PM

You are viewing a comment permalink. View the original post to see all comments and the full post content.

Article Navigation

Comments (857)

Comments (857)

You are viewing a single comment's thread. Show more comments above.

Comment author: GLaDOS 25 January 2012 07:44:03PM *  72 points [-]

Let's do the impossible and think the unthinkable! I must know what those secrets are, no matter how much sleep and comfort I might lose.

Watson was right about Africa. Larry Summers was right about women in certain professions. Roissy is right about the state of the sexual marketplace.

Democracy isn't that great. A ghetto/barrio/alternative name for low-class-hell-hole isn't a physical location, its people. Richer people are on average smarter, nicer, prettier than poor people. The more you strive to equalize material opportunities the more meritocracy produces a caste system based on inborn ability. Ideologies actually are as crazy as religions on average. There is no such thing as moral progress and if there is there is no reason to expect we have been experiencing it so far in recorded history, unless you count stuff like more adapted cultures displacing less adapted ones or mammals inheriting the planet from dinosaurs as moral progress. You can't be anything you want, your potential is severely limited at birth. University education creates very little added value. High class people unknowingly wage class war against low class people by promoting liberal social norms that they can handle but induce dysfunction in the lower classes (drug abuse, high divorce rates, juvenile delinquency, teen pregnancy, more violence, ... ). Too much ethnic diversity kills liberal social democracy. Improving the social status of the average woman vis a vis with the average man makes the average man less attractive. Inbreeding/Out-breeding norms (and obviously other social norms and practices too) have over the centuries differentiated not only IQs between Eurasian populations they have also affected the frequency and type of altruism genes present in different populations (visit hbd* chick for details ^_^ ).

Have a nice day! ~_^

Comment author: Prismattic 26 January 2012 01:14:26AM 10 points [-]

Too much ethnic diversity kills liberal social democracy.

This one really doesn't belong on the list. The political science research showing a negative correlation between support for the welfare state and ethnic diversity is widely known and not-at-all secret.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 January 2012 07:39:41AM *  12 points [-]

This one really doesn't belong on the list.

It probably should have been given as something like "Diversity is not strength." to make apparent its political implications as well as cover other cases.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 January 2012 02:05:04AM 2 points [-]

Actually, this one is new to me. Any links?

Comment author: Prismattic 26 January 2012 02:11:12AM *  7 points [-]

A Google Scholar search for "ethnic diversity welfare state" will turn up a ton of links, but the specific evidence I had in mind is the graphs you can see here.

Comment author: hairyfigment 26 January 2012 08:16:38AM 3 points [-]

At a glance, "ethnic diversity" looks more like 'a history of one internal ethnic group imposing its will on another by force'.

The first Google result for your terms may cast doubt on this -- I can't tell right now -- but it definitely minimizes the effect, in Europe, of increasing diversity (whatever that means).

Comment author: CaveJohnson 26 January 2012 10:18:08AM *  13 points [-]

In recent years, Putnam has been engaged in a comprehensive study of the relationship between trust within communities and their ethnic diversity. His conclusion based on over 40 cases and 30 000 people within the United States is that, other things being equal, more diversity in a community is associated with less trust both between and within ethnic groups. Although limited to American data, it puts into question both the contact hypothesis and conflict theory in inter-ethnic relations. According to conflict theory, distrust between the ethnic groups will rise with diversity, but not within a group. In contrast, contact theory proposes that distrust will decline as members of different ethnic groups get to know and interact with each other. Putnam describes people of all races, sex, socioeconomic statuses, and ages as "hunkering down," avoiding engagement with their local community—both among different ethnic groups and within their own ethnic group. Even when controlling for income inequality and crime rates, two factors which conflict theory states should be the prime causal factors in declining inter-ethnic group trust, more diversity is still associated with less communal trust.

Lowered trust in areas with high diversity is also associated with:

  • Lower confidence in local government, local leaders and the local news media.

  • Lower political efficacy – that is, confidence in one's own influence.

  • Lower frequency of registering to vote, but more interest and knowledge about politics and more participation in protest marches and social reform groups.

  • Higher political advocacy, but lower expectations that it will bring about a desirable result.

  • Less expectation that others will cooperate to solve dilemmas of collective action (e.g., voluntary conservation to ease a water or energy shortage).

  • Less likelihood of working on a community project.

  • Less likelihood of giving to charity or volunteering.

  • Fewer close friends and confidants.

  • Less happiness and lower perceived quality of life.

  • More time spent watching television and more agreement that "television is my most important form of entertainment".

Comment author: hairyfigment 28 January 2012 05:22:11AM 5 points [-]

Well, this certainly leads me to change my view, but perhaps not in the way you think.

At first I doubted this evidence (and I still wonder how much of it people could replicate). I would expect contact with different people to reduce fear of outsiders. Indeed, Putnam suggests as much and this later source confirms it -- having neighbors from a different ethnic group increases inter-group trust. Yet the same sources claim that an ethnically diverse neighborhood reduces trust in 'hoods and neighbors. I didn't get the impression that racial prejudice started out strong enough to explain this, though I could be wrong.

I think y'all may have buried the lede here. If these and the other results you quoted hold, then maybe all altruism comes from tribal instincts and ethnic diversity interferes with our evolved tribal sense (until the mental categories change, about which more in a second). This might explain the greater participation in marches and reform groups. The loss of a tribe leads to desire for a new one.

Comment author: hairyfigment 28 January 2012 05:28:33AM 2 points [-]

Note that the original claim said, "Too much ethnic diversity kills liberal social democracy." This seems false and certainly contradicts Putnam (see sibling comment), who gives historical reasons for thinking these effects will vanish in the long term.

In the narrow matter of support for a welfare state, the source I found earlier purports to show that ethnic diversity as such has little to no effect.

Comment author: CaveJohnson 28 January 2012 08:53:23AM 3 points [-]

This seems false and certainly contradicts Putnam (see sibling comment), who gives historical reasons for thinking these effects will vanish in the long term.

I obviously think he is wrong.

Comment author: GLaDOS 09 February 2012 09:30:58AM *  3 points [-]

At a glance, "ethnic diversity" looks more like 'a history of one internal ethnic group imposing its will on another by force'.

I think that's the point. When you have ethnic diversity in single society or state, one group always does better than others and the others will resent it its success.

Powered by Reddit Powered by Reddit