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Lightwave comments on Does functionalism imply dualism? - Less Wrong Discussion

-1 Post author: Mitchell_Porter 31 January 2012 03:43AM

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Comment author: Lightwave 31 January 2012 11:18:50AM 5 points [-]

So p-zombies are possible, and in humans, the physical processes (of the brain) are somehow "magically" correlated / isomorphic to mental phenomena, whereas this doesn't happen in simulations, for what (unknown?) reasons?

Comment author: David_Gerard 01 February 2012 11:39:40PM *  3 points [-]

The p-zombie theory holds that being able to conceive of something makes it possible; and because p-zombies are possible, therefore dualism. The tricky bit appears to be "conceive of" in a sense that implies possibility. Consider these statements:

  1. I can conceive of 2+2=4 being true in conventional Peano arithmetic.
  2. I can conceive of 2+2=5 being true in conventional Peano arithmetic.
  3. I can conceive of P being equal to NP.
  4. I can conceive of P not being equal to NP.
  5. I can conceive of p-zombies, therefore dualism.
  6. If I can conceive of p-zombies then dualism, which is a confused idea, therefore p-zombies is a confused idea by reductio ad absurdum.

With the second, I am claiming to "conceive of" something trivially false. I arguably haven't conceived of anything actually possible; I've just shuffled some words together.

With the third and fourth, I'm claiming to have conceived of something no-one knows (though many suspect 3 is false and 4 is true). To what extent have I actually thought it through? At some point I will hit a contradiction with one of them, though no-one has yet. Both are "conceivable" in some sense; certainly that they've formed a sentence in their head that they can try out for its logical implications. But one of those statements is as wrong as 2+2=5 nevertheless.

When someone claims that p-zombies are a conceivable thing at all, and that they have conceived of them, this doesn't actually say anything about the world or what is even possible; it just says they've formed a sentence in their head they think they can try out for its logical implications. But try telling them this. (I have, and haven't managed a sufficiently robust form of 6. to be convincing.)

(I still consider the fundamental argument in favour of dualism is that its advocates really want it to be true, and that p-zombies is like creationism for smart people.)

Comment author: David_Gerard 14 February 2012 06:12:34PM *  -1 points [-]

I've just realised that the second zombie post in the sequences makes exactly the point I made above: the gap between "I don't see a contradiction yet" and "this is logically possible" and what happens when you conflate the two (for instance, you might think p-zombies aren't utterly stupid).

Comment author: whowhowho 01 February 2013 03:15:19PM 0 points [-]

Lots of things don't happen in simulations. Simulated planes don't fly, and simulted explosions don't destroy anything..