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buybuydandavis comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 11 - Less Wrong Discussion
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Why are we assuming that Quirrelmort is on the up and up about wanting Harry to be the next Dark Lord?
Isn't that exactly the story you'd give a young prodigy with delusions of godhood to manipulate him, particularly if you wanted to set him against the establishment? Put Hermione in harms way, arrange to have her sent to Azkaban, where you've already arranged to have Harry rescue Bellatrix, egg Harry on to rescue her, as if he needed any egging on, then try to steal the Sorcerer's Stone while everyone is away at Azkaban.
Regardless on the details of Hermione's trial plays out, it would be a really interesting mind fuck to Harry, to find out that Quirrell was completely manipulating Harry's Messiah Complex from day one so he could someday use him as a distraction, and that all of Harry's childish science fiction fantasizing are seen by Quirrellmort as just that - childish.
And Dumbledore seems worse than Harry about taking science fiction/fantasy novels as a way to model real life.
And guess what? To the extent that we are lapping up this story, we are too. A mind fuck for Harry, Dumbledore, and us. And I can't say that we wouldn't have it coming.
Years ago, I read Point Counterpoint by Aldous Huxley, where Huxley, IMO, was a sadistic bastard who drew you into multiple parallel plots, sucking you into sympathizing and identifying with the characters, only to twist each storyline and quash all your hopes and sympathies. I thought he was just being a prick.
But if EY did a genre stomp here, I think he'd have a point, and it might even work pretty well for Harry in the story.
Such a strategy would also have a nice parallel in Harry's strategy with the armies, encouraging as much plotting and confusion as possible, because he figured that he could handle the confusion and complexity better than anyone else. It's exactly what Quirrelmort would be doing with Harry, with the Armies, with Dumbledore, with Lucius, as Mr. Hat and Cloak, etc. Get everyone scheming and doubting, then attack amidst the confusion.
Presumably if Quirrell thought he could take over the world on his own he'd have done so, and not wasted time playing a petty game to amuse himself with one boy wizard.
But you're right that "I notice I am confused" about the relationship between Voldemort, Quirrell's current mind, and Harry's mind.
If Quirrell's mind is a copy of Voldemort, and if he believes Harry's mind is also a copy of Voldemort, what is Quirrell's ultimate intent for Harry?
To overwrite him? To merge with him? Or merely to train him back into himself?
And if Dumbledore knows as much or almost as much about Horcruxes as Quirrell, does Dumbledore also know or suspect that Harry contains a piece of Voldemort's mind?
If Quirrellmort gets the Stone, he'll come back much stronger than he ever was. That's not a petty gain.
You're right, the Stone would be worth it.
But if you know or expect the Stone to be in Hogwarts, then why take the awful risk of breaking out Bellatrix Black? If you were found out, you'd lose your chance to continue casing Hogwarts for the Stone.
Come to think of it, why did Quirrellmort break out Bellatrix before his other plans were complete? Wasn't that awfully risky?
What does Bellatrix offer that is so urgently needed?
(Possible answer: Quirrellmort is decaying fast.)
Bellatrix is a puzzle.
Possible that he was actually in love with her, and that all the supposed torture was false memory charmed into her? I can't quite see how it would work, but my guess is that EY is a soppy old romantic at heart, so I wouldn't be surprised if somehow the relation between Bellatrix and Voldemort was transfigured.
Then again, maybe it wasn't Bellatrix at all. She was just being used again.
As DanArmak implies, maybe Quirrell is just driving a wedge between Harry and The Man. That's certainly useful, and plays into the current storyline of Hermione possibly going there. That was my first thought. Wouldn't that be a nice start to manipulate Harry into the Dark Side, a la the consistency bias? Also, it let Harry see first hand the torture, further alienating him from The Man.
And if Hermione gets sent up, I can't see Harry doing nothing about that, after liberating Bellatrix. Save Bellatrix and let Hermione rot? That doesn't seem likely.
However, didn't Hat and Cloak press Hermione that Harry would eventually sacrifice her for some higher goal? Somebody did that. Kind of a replay of Hermione looking to Dumbledore for justice, but receiving it from Quirrell instead. Maybe she gets disillusioned with Harry this time, and Quirrell rights the balance again? Maybe he wants to turn Hermione to the Dark Side?
The Bellatrix thing is a really good point, though. But it leads me to something else interesting - Dementors.
Maybe rescuing Bellatrix was just a diversion from the true point - seeing what Harry could do about Dementors. Defeating Death is central to Harry, Voldemort, and EY. Harry was extra sensitive to Dementors. Quirrell too. He asked for them at Hogwarts. He saved Harry from them. But Hermione said the Dementor's told her that Quirrell wanted the Dementors to eat Harry. And the Dementor told Quirrell that he knew him, and would hunt him down. Quirrell talked about "someone" attempting to destroy a Dementor. Death Eaters? A little joke from a guy who wanted to defeat death?
I would have to think, that given EY's values, the one transvaluation of values he'd want to achieve with his story is to get people to stop acquiescing and even loving death, and fight it. The symbolic crux of the story will be the fight against death. If so, betting on the Dementors as the issue for any plot point is a good bet.
Charmed by someone other than Voldemort, I presume, after his death, and really they were two happy lovers all along? But then others (Lucius, Draco through him, etc) would have had quite different memories of the Voldemort-Bella relationship, and Harry would ventually hear about it when she became a popular subject of discourse after escaping from Azkaban. Everyone can't be charmed about this matter.
Has anyone besides Quirrell shared recollections about them? I only remember Quirrell. I wouldn't expect either to be the huggy wuggy pda types. Particularly with Dumbledore setting fire to spouses.
What would it mean for the story if Lesath Lestrange was actually Lesath Riddle by blood?
He might lose his claim to inherit the vast Lestrange fortnue stored at Gringotts? I don't remember, the Lestrange and Black intermarried family trees are complex...
Draco mentioned that Bella once Crucioed herself at Voldemort's orders.
Also, if Dumbledore could have set fire to Bella he would have, spouse or no spouse.
Didn't remember that one. That's a good one. No wedding bells for Quirrell and Bella, then.
But does that offstage action of Quirrell feel right to you? As Harry would say - it doesn't seem like his style. Ruthless yes, but I'd think he'd consider that kind of gratuitous sadism as childish.
Actions like that ensured that Bellatrix's devotion to Voldemort was not a happy memory for her, and therefore would survive in Azkaban for as long as she did. It might even have prolonged her life (though I rather doubt he tortured her for her own good).
That one action may have had a reason: to demonstrate to someone how loyal she was to him, perhaps, or what was possible with Dark rituals for mind control.
More generally, the public Voldemort persona - as exemplified by Harry pretending to be Voldemort to Bella - is very different from Quirrel's public persona. In my impression, Quirrel's is more personable and likeable, and just as powerful and scary and competent. This may be due to complexities of the Quirrel-Voldemort relationship.
Maybe just to prime Harry with Azkaban, to drive a wedge between him and all magical authority that supports it, to prepare him to go Dark, and to be absolutely certain he'd act in a hurry if, say, Hermione was imprisoned there.
The other major effect of the Azkaban arc was to convince Dumbledore, and through him Madam Bones who commands the Aurors, that Voldemort has returned. While Dumbledore thinks Voldemort is around, he's less likely to suspect or investigate Quirrel as the cause of any new disasters; and he also prohibits Harry from leaving Hogwarts, which drives Harry to Quirrel for help if he must leave - such as, again, to help Hermione.
Besides, Quirrel may be right when he says he didn't think the Azkaban breakout was such a big risk (of discovery), he just didn't anticipate Harry interfering against orders and then stunning him due to the resonance.
Regardless of whether it was awfully risky, I don't think Quirrell thought it was risky. "My planss not in habit of failing."
But how does all this enable him to get the Stone more easily? Granted that Dumbledore and co. are preoccupied and confused, but OTOH Dumbledore also thinks he has confirmation of Voldemort's return (due to Quirrel's attack on Azkaban) and so increases the guard on the stone and his own vigilance.
Dumbledore was already sitting on the Stone like a mother hen because he had assumed Voldemort was coming back. The fact that Voldemort overtly showed his hand didn't change much on that score.
A reasonable goal for Voldemort is to get him out of there, and as preoccupied as possible.
He may leave briefly for the trial, but unless a move is made at that precise moment, in general I think he's going to hunker down inside his fortress of Hogwarts, defend it more tightly, and search it for Voldemort's soul more thoroughly.
The whole trial can't have been set up just to get him out for a few hours; there must be other important Wizengamot votes that he as Chief Warlock (and important political figure) must attend. He must leave Hogwarts regularaly for a few hours at a time for that reason.
On the other hand, he may routinely loop back with his Time Turner to cover up these absences, including Hermione's trial, so that there is always a Dumbledore in Hogwarts...
There must always be a Dumbledore in Hogwarts?
June is coming doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
Lewdly sing cuckoo?
Anyway, there had better be a Dumbledore at Hogwarts, or else both Harry and the Stone are wide open to the attacks Dumbledore expects from Voldemort.
Anyway, do you really see him going on a vacation in the middle of a war?
Whaa?
A reference.
Summer is icumen in, lewdly [loudly] sing cuckoo!
I honestly don't know why, but when you said June is coming that line jumped up and down in my brain and wouldn't stop until I wrote it down too. Sorry.
I'm thinking more about him having to leave if Harry raises a ruckus somewhere. Like the Azkaban breakout.