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pleeppleep comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 15, chapter 84 - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: FAWS 11 April 2012 03:39AM

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Tags: fanfiction harry_potter hpmor fiction

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Comment author: pleeppleep 11 April 2012 04:36:47AM 1 point [-]

Don't get me wrong, it makes for excellent storytelling and fits the character, but the effect is really weakened by the fact that we've been told the punchline. The chapter is written so as to give the reader the impression that Quirrell could turn out to not be Voldemort, which doesn't make any sense when its been made perfectly obvious that he is Voldemort. Of course Eliezer could go back on his word not to intentionally give false information regarding the story and have Quirrell really be just a misguided good guy, but that doesn't seem like something either the character or the writer would do. I love how Quirrell seems genuinely saddened by Hermione's apparent innocence while trying to manipulate her like a chess piece. He's about as complex a character as you could find in fiction and serves as a perfect antithesis to Harry's rational optimism. It would be a shame for that to be ruined.

Comment author: drethelin 11 April 2012 04:46:14AM 16 points [-]

A large part of the point of Quirrel/Riddle/Voldemort in HPMOR is that he can assume any identity he wants to. His behavior being at odds with what you imagine a Voldemort would do is simply his deception going to a much higher level. He doesn't act like a Voldemort because he was never actually Voldemort any more than he is actually Quirrel.

Comment author: pleeppleep 11 April 2012 04:50:28AM 0 points [-]

Where does that interpretation come from? It makes sense, but I'm curious. Also I think I was clear that such actions would fit the character. I included the possibilities that were out of character as examples to rule out certain explanations. My main grievance was with the way the chapter was written. It seemed like it was trying to trick the reader, which would be brilliant If we didn't all know the truth.

Comment author: LucasSloan 11 April 2012 04:58:01AM *  18 points [-]

I will say this much, Mr. Potter: You are already an Occlumens, and I think you will become a perfect Occlumens before long. Identity does not mean, to such as us, what it means to other people. Anyone we can imagine, we can be; and the true difference about you, Mr. Potter, is that you have an unusually good imagination. A playwright must contain his characters, he must be larger than them in order to enact them within his mind. To an actor or spy or politician, the limit of his own diameter is the limit of who he can pretend to be, the limit of which face he may wear as a mask. But for such as you and I, anyone we can imagine, we can be, in reality and not pretense. While you imagined yourself a child, Mr. Potter, you were a child. Yet there are other existences you could support, larger existences, if you wished. Why are you so free, and so great in your circumference, when other children your age are small and constrained? Why can you imagine and become selves more adult than a mere child of a playwright should be able to compose? That I do not know, and I must not say what I guess. But what you have, Mr. Potter, is freedom.

Comment author: drethelin 11 April 2012 04:56:52AM 5 points [-]

He acts as different people in Azkaban, as Hat and Cloak (and/or Ghost Lady). He has a different face to every person he interacts with, from Snape to Harry to the public at the ceremony, and in this chapter presenting an entirely new, almost caring face to Hermione.

Comment author: Bugmaster 11 April 2012 05:26:17AM 15 points [-]

and in this chapter presenting an entirely new, almost caring face to Hermione.

Which makes perfect sense, since, via his dictionary attack (that took place in earlier chapters), he'd already learned that this is the easiest way to manipulate her.

Comment author: Nominull 11 April 2012 04:39:43AM 3 points [-]

When the audience knows something that the characters do not, this is known as "dramatic irony". HPMOR is not technically a play but I think the general principle still applies; we can enjoy watching Quirrell fool the other characters even as we are not fooled.

Comment author: pleeppleep 11 April 2012 04:44:10AM 1 point [-]

That is the best answer, but the way its written makes it look like its trying to fool the reader. Otherwise there wouldn't be clues like the fact that Quirrell never actually admitting to being the person Bones suspects him to be.

Comment author: bogdanb 11 April 2012 06:01:24AM 12 points [-]

but the way its written makes it look like its trying to fool the reader.

Eliezer might be aiming further than just us. Future readers will probably not read the notes and LessWrong threads in parallel with the book, and he knows from past reactions that the Voldie hints are interpreted more ambiguously by readers than he intended to. So the style might be intended to be ironic for us and mysterious for future readers.

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