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FAWS comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 15, chapter 84 - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: FAWS 11 April 2012 03:39AM

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Comment author: FAWS 12 April 2012 07:01:14PM *  8 points [-]
  • Quirrel is pretty much universally agreed to be Voldemort, likely with the 5 places Harry names in chapter 46 as his Horcrux hiding places, among them the Pioneer plate, and probably Harry himself as in canon.
  • Surius Black is generally agreed not to ever have been taken to Azkaban, most likely by somehow making Peter Pettigrew take his place.
  • Lucius is agreed to think that Harry is Voldemort (and be right with respect to Harry's dark side).

There were a bunch of theories regarding the identities of Hat and Cloak and Santa Claus and the details of the prank on Rita Skeeter, but those were mostly settled in recent chapters.

Comment author: chaosmosis 13 April 2012 02:58:14AM 1 point [-]

I can haz evidences, plz?

But thanks for even just the claims.

Comment author: loserthree 13 April 2012 05:31:24PM 5 points [-]

Quirrell makes 'riddle' puns and told the story of his mother's crime as an offhand remark. The rest is all under Conservation of Detail, which the author suggested we pay attention to.

That is, there is only room for one, true antagonist, everyone else is just an obstacle. Voldemort, more than anyone else (except maybe Dumbledore if you follow that fascinating fringe theory), is set up to be the antagonist. Behind all the things that Quirrell does for HJPEV or anyone else, he is evil. He really is.

Donc, he's almost certainly Voldemort.

I think it is also fairly accepted that Dumbledore helped Lily Potter pretty-up her sister through the potion textbook he gave to HJPEV with the "terrible secret." I think that's winning out over the "Dumbledore used Lily to break Snape" theory that I was favoring a while back.

We think Lucius thinks HJPEV is Vodlemort because it makes a lot more sense out of what Lucius says to HJPEV in chapter 38. And later chapters, too. That's a "It just fits together" answer that I'm sure some don't like. But there it is.

I don't know of good proof for Harry's status. I thought it was disputed. There's the whole 'dark side' thing, but then he kind of has a lot of sides.

I could get quote for all of these later, like Monday or maybe sooner. But not right now. Maybe someone else will in the meantime, maybe not.

Comment author: chaosmosis 18 April 2012 12:30:00AM *  1 point [-]

On Riddle Puns:

"A riddle, Lord Malfoy!" the Boy-Who-Lived shouted across the Most Ancient Hall. "I know you weren't in Ravenclaw, but try to answer this one anyway! What destroys Dark Lords, frightens Dementors, and owes you sixty thousand Galleons?"

For an instant Lord Malfoy stood there with eyes slightly widened; then his face fell back into calm scorn, and his voice spoke coolly in reply. "Are you openly threatening me, Mr. Potter?"

Malfoy's "instant" of surprise doesn't make sense unless it's in response to what Potter said. Malfoy wouldn't have been surprised for only an instant by anything else that Harry said, because he had already seen Harry spook the dementor. This supports the theory that Malfoy thinks Harry is Voldemort, to the extent that the Quirrell = Voldemort theory is true. It also supports the Quirrel = Voldemort theory to the extent that the Malfoy thinks Harry is Voldemort theory is true. It ties those theories together, a little bit.

The weakness of this argument is that it requires a previously unmentioned detail, that Malfoy knows Voldemort uses riddle puns. But that's a small weakness and the argument still seems more true than false.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 18 April 2012 12:47:15AM 2 points [-]

The weakness of this argument is that it requires a previously unmentioned detail, that Malfoy knows Voldemort uses riddle puns.

It only requires that Malfoy knows Voldemort to be Tom Riddle -- which in canon he did.

Comment author: chaosmosis 18 April 2012 04:49:11AM 0 points [-]

I don't know why you think I didn't know this. But there is a difference between knowing Tom Riddle is Voldemort and knowing that Voldemort's secret identities often use Riddle puns. This difference is poignantly illustrated by the fact that HPMOR Harry knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort but never catches on to the Riddle puns. If you're going to correct me, please make sure that I'm actually wrong in the first place.

Additionally, I explicitly said that this objection was only weak and that the theory was still fairly strong. I don't know why you would make this comment unless you're fishing for karma or you love to argue about trivial and stupid things.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 18 April 2012 09:53:17AM *  4 points [-]

This difference is poignantly illustrated by the fact that HPMOR Harry knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort but never catches on to the Riddle puns.

Harry in HPMoR hasn't been told Voldemort was once named Tom Riddle.

If you're going to correct me, please make sure that I'm actually wrong in the first place.

I've just made sure, by searching for all occurrences of the word "riddle" in the Methods of Rationality PDF -- and seeing that Dumbledore never once mentions the name Tom Riddle in front of Harry. Is this enough "making sure"?

I don't know why you would make this comment unless you're fishing for karma or you love to argue about trivial and stupid things.

Your imprecisions lead to flawed conclusions. I've only been making corrections when the mistakes significantly affect such conclusions.

Comment author: drnickbone 21 May 2012 08:39:06PM *  2 points [-]

This is a good catch by the way, and itself another oddity.

Canon Dumbledore told Harry a lot about Voldemort's background (including the Riddle years and his theories about the horcruxes) - HPMOR Dumbledore has done none of this. And yet he expects Harry to fight him, and Harry already knows about the prophecy.

Another issue is that I'm recently doubting whether Quirrell/Voldemort is actually Tom Riddle in the HPMOR universe. It is clearly implied that Quirrell = Voldemort, but then suddenly in chapters 84 and 85 we get this Quirrell = Hero identification (from a Noble and Ancient House, no less). Further, Eliezer has made it clear that Hero is not Tom Riddle (by adjusting the birth year).

So what are the possibilities? It seems that either Tom Riddle killed the original Hero character, and then impersonated him in the fight against his alter ego Voldemort. Or, even more intriguingly, the Hero character fought and defeated Tom Riddle much earlier on, then set up the Voldemort character to be the awful Dark Lord with a "secret" identity of Tom Riddle, while himself being the "secret within a secret" identity, and the heroic adversary. This is a plot worthy of a truly evil Sith Lord such as Emperor Palpatine. Presumably the Death Eaters as well as Dumbledore and aurors are all deceived, and this is the real reason why booby-trapping the grave of Tom Riddle's father (after TSPE) is going to be of no use. Quirrelmort has no need to hide the father's grave, because it's totally irrelevant.

Comment author: pedanterrific 18 April 2012 04:55:46AM *  1 point [-]

HPMOR Harry knows Tom Riddle is Voldemort

What makes you think this? (He doesn't.)

Comment author: chaosmosis 18 April 2012 05:46:03AM 1 point [-]

Dumbledore talks about Tom = Voldemort all the time in front of him... I think.

But it doesn't impact my point either way. But I understand why pointing out the error still makes sense despite the previous sentence.

And now I've wasted an hour arguing on the internet which is one of the most useless things that I know of and which is what I was trying to avoid in the first place hangs head in shame.

Comment author: pedanterrific 18 April 2012 05:56:51AM 5 points [-]

Dumbledore talks about Tom = Voldemort all the time in front of him... I think.

Not even once, in fact.

Comment author: FAWS 13 April 2012 05:55:59PM *  4 points [-]

In addition to what the others have said there are numerous other passages and oddities that hint at Quirrel = Voldemort = Harry's dark side. Harry and Quirrel describing a Horcrux between them when they talk about the Pioneer plate. Quirrel saying he "resolved his parental issues to his satisfaction" long ago, just after saying being grateful for his parents could never have occured to him. Quirrel having a much better model of Harry than of Draco or Hermione, particularly when Harry's dark side is involved. Harry's dark side and Quirrel both being extremely vulnerable to Dementors. Harry's dark side and Quirrel both being very good at pretending to be other people. Quirrel's extremely odd reaction when Harry talks about having a mysterious dark side and his going along with the convenient conclusion that it's just another part of Harry. Dumbledore and Snape recognizing Voldemort's hand in Quirrels actions. Harry's dark side hating Dumbledore. And so on.

The strongest piece of evidence for Lucius believing Harry to be Voldemort is his "I know it was you" message after breaking out Bellatrix.

Comment author: Benquo 17 April 2012 09:47:37PM 4 points [-]

Quirrel saying he "resolved his parental issues to his satisfaction" long ago, just after saying being grateful for his parents could never have occured to him.

And of course, from Chapter 34:

My own family is long since dead at the Dark Lord's hand.

Comment author: pedanterrific 13 April 2012 03:22:21AM 3 points [-]

Evidence for the second one (Sirius Black).

Comment author: chaosmosis 13 April 2012 03:57:20PM 1 point [-]

The guy who caught that second quote is completely amazing.

Comment author: pedanterrific 13 April 2012 06:42:53PM 1 point [-]

Why thank you.

Comment author: [deleted] 12 April 2012 07:18:58PM 1 point [-]

Wait, when did we learn anything about the Rita Skeeter prank?

Comment author: FAWS 12 April 2012 07:40:01PM 6 points [-]

Harry concluded that it must have been a false memory charm. That was one of the more popular theories before, and Harry agreeing is probably as much confirmation as we are going to get in-story.