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chaosmosis comments on Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality discussion thread, part 15, chapter 84 - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: FAWS 11 April 2012 03:39AM

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Comment author: chaosmosis 18 April 2012 12:00:40AM *  1 point [-]

Quirrell is reading Hermione's mind and manipulating her during their conversation at the end of 84.

"But you don't have to be a hero, Miss Granger," said Professor Quirrell. "You can stop anytime you please."

That idea...

...had occurred to her before, several times over the last two days.

And also:

Whatever else you imagine of me, I swear that if you asked me to see you safely in Beauxbatons, I would do all in my power to convey you there."

"I can't just -" Hermione said.

"But you can, Miss Granger." Now the pale blue eyes watched her intently. "Whatever you wish to make of your life, you cannot attain it at Hogwarts, not anymore. This place is ruined for you now, even leaving aside all other threats. Simply ask Harry Potter to command you to go to Beauxbatons and live out your life in peace. If you stay here, he is your master in the eyes of Britain and its laws!"

She hadn't even been thinking about that, it paled so much in comparison to being eaten by Dementors; it had been important to her before, but now it all seemed childish, unimportant, pointless, so why were her eyes burning?

"And if that fails to move you, Miss Granger, consider also that Mr. Potter has, just today at lunchtime, threatened Lucius Malfoy, Albus Dumbledore, and the entire Wizengamot because he cannot think sensibly when something threatens to take you from him. Are you not frightened of what he will do next?"

It made sense. Terrible sense. Dreadful awful sense.

It made too much sense -

She couldn't have described it in words, what triggered the realization, unless it was the sheer pressure that the Defense Professor was exerting on her.

That if the Defense Professor was behind this whole thing - then Professor Quirrell had done it all just to get her out of the way of his plans for Harry.

Without any conscious decision, she shifted her weight to the other foot, her body moving away from the Defense Professor -

"So you think I am the one responsible?" said Professor Quirrell.

He stares at her, and plucks thoughts out of her head to persuade her, and her eyes start burning (maybe she's not blinking or something, or EY is adding that as a side effect of legimancy, or it's just to draw our attention to the eye contact), and the instant she decides he's responsible he echoes her thought. So that seems pretty obvious. I now understand why EY thinks that we're bad at reading clues, I've read that chapter about three times and this is the first time I've picked up on it.

Also, I'd like to have said that he stopped manipulating her right after she broke eye contact, but it never explicitly says where she breaks eye contact. I would assume that she broke eye contact when she stepped away from him though, that seems more natural and is how the scene goes down when I imagine it inside my head.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 18 April 2012 12:41:57AM *  5 points [-]

the instant she decides he's responsible he echoes her thought

No, he echoes her thought the instant she physically reacts to move away from him. NOT the "instant she decides". Keep the facts straight, please.

We've already been told that common sense is often mistaken for Legimancy. This event doesn't require reading her mind, it just requires reading her body language.

, and her eyes start burning (maybe she's not blinking or something, or EY is adding that as a side effect of legimancy, or it's just to draw our attention to the eye contact

Eyes burning has never been mentioned as a side-effect of Legimancy previously, as far as I can remember -- so I don't see how you can use it as evidence in favour of Legimancy. Eyes burning seems more likely to be indicative of someone who's about to cry.

Comment author: chaosmosis 18 April 2012 01:06:56AM *  -2 points [-]

I feel like your post is a bit snippy and that your tone and the negative karma you gave are not warranted.

I should have phrased it differently, but it's not body language, it's Legimancy.

There are many possible reasons that she could have taken a step back. That she stepped away from Quirrell in no way mandates that she's distrusting Quirrell, it could be many other things. There's also many possible reasons she could distrust him. Him naming the exact thought that she had almost immediately after she stepped away from him seems improbable. Quirrell is an idiot if he jumped to the conclusion that she thought he was responsible just because she stepped away from him, that conclusion only makes sense in the context of the information in Hermione's mind.

We already know that Quirrell can read minds and there's decent reason to suspect that he would do so. We know that Legimancy requires looking someone in the eyes, and he's doing that. Additionally, if you'd read my comment more carefully you would have noticed that I gave many explanations for why her eyes might have been burning.

Means, motive, opportunity, no probable counterexplanation...

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 18 April 2012 01:20:05AM 3 points [-]

and the negative karma you gave

I didn't downvote you - please don't assume that a criticism is always accompanied by a downvote.

That she stepped away from Quirrell in no way mandates that she's distrusting Quirrell, it could be many other things.

Name three.

Quirrell is an idiot if he jumped to the conclusion that she thought he was responsible just because she stepped away from him, that conclusion only makes sense in the context of the information in Hermione's mind.

When her first reaction to his sight was "Are you here to kill me?"

Him naming the exact thought that she had almost immediately after she stepped away from him seems improbable.

Except that he didn't name the exact thought that she had. The thought that she had at the moment was "If the Defense Professor was behind this whole thing then Professor Quirrell had done it all just to get her out of the way of his plans for Harry." -- in short she thought of his motivation. She had already thought of him as number one suspect just before she said "Are you here to kill me?" at the beginning of the encounter.

So he wasn't actually echoing any current thought. He just assumed she thought him responsible, after several obvious physical and verbal indications she feared him.

Quirrell is an idiot if he jumped to the conclusion that she thought he was responsible just because she stepped away from him

He would be an idiot if he didn't jump to that conclusion.