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nyan_sandwich comments on A Kick in the Rationals: What hurts you in your LessWrong Parts? - Less Wrong Discussion
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Mass Effect kicks me in the LW.
Quantum entanglement communication. AI (including superAI) all over the place, life still normal. Bad ethics. Humans in funny suits.
Your strength as a rationalist is your ability to scream 'bullshit' and throw the controller at the screen.
Eh. If violations of physics and common sense (never mind unusual cognitive-science concepts) in space opera had the ability to make me angry, I'd have to spend most of my time getting angry. Mass Effect actually seems fairly sane as space opera goes, though its handling of the robot rebellion motif is pretty damned ham-fisted.
The most recent Deus Ex game actually bothered me more, thanks to explicitly tackling transhumanist themes and then completely failing to resolve them in a way that showed any understanding of the subject matter. Very little in media irritates me more than a work rendering complex philosophical issues down into a trite moral quandary and then trying to award itself cool points for knowing about the issue at all.
In what way could Deus Ex: Human Revolution have "resolved" it's transhumanist themes without violating continuity with Deus Ex?
Any rationalist that can't enjoy a simple story... much less resorting to throwing their controller at the screen... has demonstrated weakness, not strength. You have cut yourself out of a huge part of culture, the "human experience", simply so that you can proclaim "bullshit!" and be angry, without affecting any actual change in the world.
sure. I know, I should ignore the stupid things and just enjoy the art, but throwing your controller at the screen is an unfortunate side effect of breaking down compartmentalization and cultivating an aversion to bad thinking.
Maybe I will be able to enjoy fiction again when I reach your level. Until then, it is a cost to be paid.
Ehn. On the other hand, different folks enjoy different stories in different ways. And may even derive some enjoyment from analyzing or looking at stories they themselves didn't actually enjoy. There's also engaging with a narrative critically; "enjoy a simple story" doesn't mean "don't think about this at all" or "have only positive to neutral reactions."
If one genuinely enjoys throwing controllers at the screen, and is well off enough to afford the replacement TVs when one inevitably fractures from the force of the blows, sure.
Personally, I got the rather strong impression that nyan_sandwich was throwing the controller because of frustration, not euphoria.
Define inevitably. I don't think I could throw a controller hard enough to damage a CRT or a rear projector. These suggest designs for protective covers (for the former, put the TV behind thick curved glass; for the latter put it behind a durable plastic sheet held in a rigid frame.
That was playful exaggeration, sorry ^.^;
I am surprised to hear that a CRT is considered that durable. I can bend deadbolts and I've had friends take a metal door off it's frame, so I was raised on an odd sense of what "normal" strength is.
Large CRTs are made of very thick curved glass. I once did hit one hard enough to chip it, which left a hole several millimeters deep and did not appear to affect the structural integrity of the tube. But I don't know about "that durable" - if you dropped one from a sufficient height it would surely break - but it's more a question of how much force you (or I) can throw a controller with.
My previous basis for it was my electronics teacher talking about a friend taking one in to a shop, dropping it, and having it shatter. This would have been a height of 4-5 feet, since it was held in arms Maybe modern CRTs are thicker / more durable? Given my electronics teacher, it's also entirely possible he just enjoyed dramatic stories...
Well, don't forget that it will hit the ground with a force proportional to its weight. You probably wouldn't want him to have dropped it on your head - it would be a rather more unpleasant experience than having a controller thrown at your head.
Yep. Most mass-market space operas are guilty of this. Despite having knowledge and resources to fly to other planets, humans in them still have to shoot kinetic bullets at animals.
However, stories, in order to be entertaining (at least for the mainstream public), have to depict a protagonist (or a group thereof) who are changing because of conflict, and the conflict has to be winnable, resolvable -- it must "allow" the protagonist to use his wit, perseverance, luck and whatever else to win.
Now imagine a "more realistic" setting where humans went through a singularity (and, possibly, coexist with AIs). If the singularity was friendly, then this is an utopia which, by definition, has no conflict. If the singularity was unfriendly, humans are either already disassembled for atoms, or soon will be -- and they have no chance to win against the AI because the capability gap is too big. Neither branch has much story potential.
This applies to game design as well -- enemies in a game built around a conflict have to be "repeatedly winnable", otherwise the game would become an exercise in frustration.
(I think there is some story / game potential in the early FOOM phase where humans still have a chance to shut it down, but it is limited. A realistic AI has no need to produce hordes of humanoid or monstrous robots vulnerable to bullets to serve as enemies, and it has no need to monologue when the hero is about to flip the switch. Plus the entire conflict is likely to be very brief.)
How is this a utopia?
Data from Star Trek doesn't quite give me the lurching despair I was thinking of when I wrote the original post, but he does make me do a mental double-take whenever a physical embodiment of human understanding of cognition sits there wondering about esoteric aspects of human behaviour that were mysterious to sci-fi screenwriters in the early 1990s.
To be fair, he didn't actually have access to Soong's design notes.
Data's awareness of his own construction varies as befits the plot. My point was that TNG often asked a lot of questions about ethics and cognition and personhood and identity. Data himself talks about the mysterious questions of human experience all the bloody time.
In a world where Data exists, significant headway has been made on those questions already.
This is a special case of a general property of the Star Trek universe: it exhibits a very low permeability to new information. Breakthroughs and discoveries occur all over the place that have only local effects.
I've generally assumed that there's some as-yet-unrevealed Q-like entity that intervenes regularly to avoid too many changes in the social fabric in a given period of time.
The Federation government being deeply corrupt would also explain a lot.
Bwahaha. Have you seen the end of mass effect 3? The "win" is worse than letting the bad guys do their thing.
Can you rot13 the ending for us? I've never played it and never intend to, but I wouldn't mind knowing what you're talking about.
N zvyyvbaf-bs-lrnef-byq fhcrevagryyvtrapr inyhrf yvsr, ohg unf qrgrezvarq gung gur bayl jnl gb fhfgnva yvsr va gur tnynkl vf gb crevbqvpnyyl jvcr bhg nqinaprq pvivyvmngvbaf orsber gurl varivgnoyl frys-qrfgehpg, qrfgeblvat tnynpgvp srphaqvgl. Gb qb guvf, vg perngrq avtu-vaihyarenoyr znpuvarf gung fjrrc guebhtu rirel 50,000 lrnef naq fcraq n srj praghevrf xvyyvat rirel fcrpvrf ng xneqnfuri 1 be terngre.
Sbe gur cnfg srj plpyrf, betnavpf unir znqr cebterff gbjneq fgbccvat gur znpuvarf. Gur fhcrevagryyvtrapr nqzvgf gb lbh gung gur fbyhgvba vf ab ybatre jbexvat, naq bssref guerr pubvprf: (1) betnavpf qbzvangr znpuvarf, (2) xvyy nyy NVf, (3) "zretr" betnavpf jvgu NVf. Arvgure gur tnzr abe gur fhcrevagryyvtrapr vzcyvrf gung pvivyvmngvba jvyy abg frys-qrfgehpg, qrfgeblvat tnynpgvp srphaqvgl.
Gung'f abg nyy gub. Nyy fbyhgvbaf vaibyir gur qrfgehpgvba bs gur pvgrqry naq znff erynlf, juvpu ner gur onfvf bs tnynpgvp pvivyvmngvba. Jvgubhg gurz gur rpbabzl jvyy gbgnyyl zryg qbja, abar bs gur syrrgf jvyy or noyr gb rfpncr gur fby flfgrz, naq ovyyvbaf bs crbcyr jvyy or fghpx va cynprf jvgu ab pbzcngvoyr sbbq. Znff fgneingvba rafhrf.
Naq gung'f vtabevat gung gur qrfgehpgvba bs n znff erynl perngrf na rkcybfvba ba cne jvgu n fhcreabin, jvcvat bhg gur ubfg flfgrz.
Fb onfvpnyyl rirelbar qvrf, naq pvivyvmngvba arire erpbiref.
Vs lbh unq yrg gur erncref fgrnzebyyre pvivyvmngvba, gur arkg plpyr jbhyq unir orra noyr gb qrsrng gurz naq ohvyq n creznanag pvivyvmngvba orpnhfr bs jneavatf cynprq nyy bire gur cynpr ol bar bs gur punenpgref.
Gung'f abg nyy gub. Nyy fbyhgvbaf vaibyir gur qrfgehpgvba bs gur pvgrqry naq znff erynlf, juvpu ner gur onfvf bs tnynpgvp pvivyvmngvba. Jvgubhg gurz gur rpbabzl jvyy gbgnyyl zryg qbja, abar bs gur syrrgf jvyy or noyr gb rfpncr gur fby flfgrz, naq ovyyvbaf bs crbcyr jvyy or fghpx va cynprf jvgu ab pbzcngvoyr sbbq. Znff fgneingvba rafhrf.
Naq gung'f vtabevat gung gur qrfgehpgvba bs n znff erynl perngrf na rkcybfvba ba cne jvgu n fhcreabin, jvcvat bhg gur ubfg flfgrz.
Fb onfvpnyyl rirelbar qvrf, naq pvivyvmngvba arire erpbiref.
Vs lbh unq yrg gur erncref fgrnzebyyre pvivyvmngvba, gur arkg plpyr jbhyq unir orra noyr gb qrsrng gurz naq ohvyq n creznanag pvivyvmngvba orpnhfr bs jneavatf cynprq nyy bire gur cynpr ol bar bs gur punenpgref.
Tbbq cbvag. Fvapr gur pvarzngvp raqvat fubjrq crbcyr gung unqa'g tbggra fhcreabin'rq, V nffhzrq gurl fbzrubj qvq n tenprshy fuhgqbja ba gur znff erynlf, hayvxr gur Ongnevna fbyhgvba. Ohg rira tvira gung, gurer'f qrsvavgryl n znffvir syrrg fghpx va gur Fby flfgrz naq ab zber vagrefgryyne genqr.
Bu, jryy. Ng yrnfg gur zhygvcynlre'f rguvpnyyl qrsrafvoyr (V tb ol rg wnlarf gurer).
I'm confused as to why this was downvoted - was it because it was an inaccurate summary?
I don't know either, but it isn't inaccurate.
Perhaps because the quote was misformatted or because the poster advertised their multi-player handle.
There is Friendliness and there is Friendliness. Note: Ambivalence or even bemused antagonism would qualify as Friendliness so long as humans were still able to determine their own personal courses of development and progress.
An AGI that had as its sole ambition the prevention of other AGIs and unFriendly scenarios would allow a lot of what passes for bad science fiction in most space operas, actually. AI cores on ships that can understand human language but don't qualify as fully sentient (because the real AGI is gutting their intellects); androids that are fully humanoid and perhaps even sentient but haven't any clue why that is so (because you could rebuild human-like cognitive faculties by reverse-engineering black-box but if you actually knew what was going on in the parts you would have that information purged...) -- so on and so on.
And yet this would qualify as Friendly; human society and ingenuity would continue.