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shokwave comments on Can anyone explain to me why CDT two-boxes? - Less Wrong Discussion

-12 Post author: Andreas_Giger 02 July 2012 06:06AM

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Comment author: shokwave 02 July 2012 04:22:10PM 3 points [-]

Perfect sense. Theorising that CDT would lose because it's playing a different game is uninteresting as a thought experiment; if I theorise that any decision theory is playing a different game it will also lose; this is not a property of CDT but of the hypothetical.

Let's turn to the case of playing in reality, as it's the interesting one.

If you grant that Newcomb paradoxes might exist in reality, then there is a real problem: CDT can't distinguish between free money boxes and Newcomb paradoxes, so so when it encounters a Newcomb situation it underperforms.

If you claim Newcomb cannot exist in reality, then this is not a problem with CDT. I (and hopefully others, though I shan't speak for them) would accept that this is not a problem with CDT if it is shown that Newcomb's is not possible in real life - but we are arguing against you here because we think Newcomb is possible. (Okay, I did speak for them).

I disagree on two points: one, I think a simulator is possible (that is, Omega 's impossibility comes from other powers we've given it, we can remove those powers and weaken Omega to a fits-in-reality definition without losing prediction), and two, I don't think the priors-and-payoffs approach to an empirical predictor is correct (for game-theoretic reasons which I can explicate if you'd like, but if it's not the point of contention it would only distract).

Comment author: Andreas_Giger 02 July 2012 05:00:35PM * -2 points [-]

CDT can't distinguish between free money boxes and Newcomb paradoxes

No, CDT can in fact distinguish very well. It always concludes that the money is there, and it is always right, because it never encounters Newcomb.

we think Newcomb is possible.

To clarify: You are talking about actual Newcomb with an omniscient being, yes? Because in that case, I think several posters have already stated they deem this impossible, and Nozick agrees.

If you're talking about empirical Newcomb, that certainly is possible, but it is impossible to do better than CDT without choosing differently in other situations, because if you've acted like CDT in the past, Omega is going to assume you are CDT, even if you're not.

I disagree on two points: one, I think a simulator is possible (that is, Omega 's impossibility comes from other powers we've given it, we can remove those powers and weaken Omega to a fits-in-reality definition without losing prediction)

I agree on the "we can remove those powers and weaken Omega to a fits-in-reality definition without losing prediction" part, but this will change what the "correct" answer is. For example, you could substitute Omega with a coin toss and repeat the game if Omega is wrong. This is still a one-time problem, because Omega is a coin and therefore has no memory, but CDT, which would two-box in empirical Newcomb, one-boxes in this case and takes the $1,000,000.

and two, I don't think the priors-and-payoffs approach to an empirical predictor is correct (for game-theoretic reasons which I can explicate if you'd like, but if it's not the point of contention it would only distract).

I don't think this is the point of contention, but after we've settled that, I would be interested in hearing your line of thought on this.

Comment author: Emile 02 July 2012 05:35:01PM 3 points [-]

To clarify: You are talking about actual Newcomb with an omniscient being, yes? Because in that case, I think several posters have already stated they deem this impossible, and Nozick agrees.

How about the version where agents are computer programs, and Omega runs a simulation of the agent facing the choice, observes it's behavior, and fills the boxes accordingly?

I see no violation of causality in that version.

Comment author: Andreas_Giger comment score below threshold [+] (17 children)

Comment author: Emile 02 July 2012 06:06:39PM 4 points [-]

If the simulation is correct, a program that chooses to one-box will get $1,000,000, and a program that chooses to two-box will get $1,000. I wouldn't call that "not having a choice".

Comment author: Andreas_Giger comment score below threshold [+] (15 children)

Comment author: Emile 02 July 2012 10:27:13PM 5 points [-]

Consider programs that, given the description of a situation (possibly including a chain of events leading to it) and a list of possible actions, returns one of the actions. It doesn't seem to be a stretch of language to say that such programs are "choosing", because the way those programs react to their situation can be very similar to the way humans react (consider: finding the shortest path between two points; playing a turn-based strategy game, etc.).

Whether programs that are hard-coded to always return a particular answer "choose" or not is a very boring question of semantics, like "does a tree falling in the forest make a sound if no-one is around to hear it".

Given a description of Newcomb's problem, a well-written program will one-box, and a badly-written one will two-box. The difference between the two is not trivial.

Comment author: Andreas_Giger 03 July 2012 10:19:22AM * 1 point [-]

Given a description of Newcomb's problem, a well-written program will one-box, and a badly-written one will two-box. The difference between the two is not trivial.

I see your point now, and I agree with the quoted statement. However, there's a difference between Newcomb, where you make your decision after Omega made its prediction, and "meta-Newcomb", where you're allowed to precommit before Omega makes its prediction, for example by choosing your programming. In meta-Newcomb, I don't even have to consider being a computer program that can be simulated; I can just give my good friend Epsilon, who always exactly does what he is told, a gun and tell him to shoot me if I lie, then tell Omega I'm going to one-box, and then Omega would make its prediction. I would one-box, get $1,000,000 and, more importantly, not shot.

This is a decision that CDT would make, given the opportunity.

Comment author: Emile 03 July 2012 01:17:30PM * 1 point [-]

there's a difference between Newcomb, where you make your decision after Omega made its prediction, and "meta-Newcomb", where you're allowed to precommit before Omega makes its prediction, for example by choosing your programming.

I agree that meta-Newcomb is not the same problem, and that in meta-newcomb CDT would precommit to one-box.

However, even in normal Newcomb, it's possible to have agents that behave as if they had precommited when they realize precomitting would have been better for them. More specifically, in pseudocode:

function takedecision(informationabout_world, actions):

for each action:

calculate the utility that an agent that always returns that action would have got

return the action that got the highest utility

There are some subtleties, notably about how to take the information about the world into account, but an agent built along this model should one-box on problems like Newcomb's, while two-boxing in cases where Omega decides by flipping a coin.

(such an agent; however, doesn't cooperate with itself in prisonner's dilemma, you need a better agent for that)

Comment author: Andreas_Giger 03 July 2012 01:25:01PM * 0 points [-]

You are 100% correct. However, if you say "it's possible to have agents that behave as if they had precommited", then you are not talking about what's the best decision to make in this situation, but what's the best decision theory to have in this situation, and that is, again, meta-Newcomb, because the decision which decision theory you're going to follow is a decision you have to make before Omega makes its prediction. Switching to this decision theory after Omega makes its prediction doesn't work, obviously, so this is not a solution for Newcomb.

Comment author: wedrifid 03 July 2012 10:48:20AM * 0 points [-]

I can just give my good friend Epsilon, who always exactly does what he is told, a gun and tell him to shoot me if I lie, then tell Omega I'm going to one-box, and then Omega would make its prediction. I would one-box, get $1,000,000 and, more importantly, not shot.

When I first read this I took it literally, as using Epsilon directly as a lie detector. That had some interesting potential side effects (like death) for a CDT agent. On second reading I take it to mean "Stay around with the gun until after everything is resolved and if I forswear myself kill me". As a CDT agent you need to be sure that Epsilon will stay with the gun until you have abandoned the second box. If Epsilon just scans your thoughts, detects whether you are lying and then leaves then CDT will go ahead and take both boxes anyway. (It's mind-boggling to think of agents that couldn't even manage cooperation with themselves with $1m on the line and a truth oracle right there to help them!)

Comment author: Andreas_Giger 03 July 2012 11:40:10AM * 0 points [-]

Yeah, I meant that Epsilon would shoot if you two-box after having said you would one-box. In the end, "Epsilon with a gun" is just a metaphor for / specific instance of precommitting, as is "computer program that can choose its programming".

Comment author: TrE 03 July 2012 07:21:59AM 3 points [-]

Have you also already thought about free will?

Comment author: JenniferRM 02 July 2012 10:40:26PM * 6 points [-]

You seem to be fighting the hypothetical, but I don't know if you're doing it out of mistrust or because some background would be helpful. I'll assume helpful background would be helpful... :-)

A program could be designed to (1) search for relevant sensory data within a larger context, (2) derive a mixed strategy given the input data, (3) gets more bits of salt from local thermal fluctuations than log2(number of possible actions), (4) drop the salt into a pseudo-random number generator over its derived mixed strategy, and (5) output whatever falls out as its action. This rough algorithm seems strongly deterministic in some ways, and yet also strongly reminiscent of "choice" in others.

This formulation reduces the "magic" of Omega to predicting the relatively fixed elements of the agent (ie, steps 1, 2, and 4) which seems roughly plausible as a matter of psychology and input knowledge and so on, and also either (A) knowing from this that the strategy that will be derived isn't actually mixed so the salt is irrelevant, or else (B) having access/control of the salt in step 3.

In AI design, steps 1 and 2 are under the programmer's control to some degree. Some ways of writing the program might make the AI more or less tractable/benevolent/functional/wise and it seems like it would be good to know which ways are likely to produce better outcomes before any such AI is built and achieves takeoff rather than after. Hence the interest in this thought experiment as an extreme test case. The question is not whether step 3 is pragmatically possible for an imaginary Omega to hack in real life. The question is how to design steps 1 and 2 in toy scenarios where the program's ability to decide how to pre-commit and self-edit are the central task, so that harder scenarios can be attacked as "similar to a simpler solved problem".

If you say "Your only choices are flipping a coin or saying a predetermined answer" you're dodging the real question. You can be dragged back to the question by simply positing "Omega predicts the coin flip, what then?" If there's time and room for lots and lots of words (rather than just seven words) then another way to bring attention back to the question is to explain about fighting the hypothetical, try to build rapport, see if you can learn to play along so that you can help advance a useful intellectual project.

If you still "don't get it", then please, at least don't clog up the channel. If you do get it, please offer better criticism. Like, if you know of a different but better thought experiment where effectively-optimizing self-modifying pre-commitment is the central feature of study, that would be useful.

Comment author: Andreas_Giger comment score below threshold [+] (6 children)

shokwave comments on Can anyone explain to me why CDT two-boxes? - Less Wrong Discussion

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