Politics Discussion Thread September 2012

Multiheaded

The last thread didn't fare too badly, I think; let's make it a monthly tradition. (Me, I'm more interested in thinking about real-world policies or philosophies, actual and possible, rather than AI design or physics, and I suspect that many fine, non-mind-killed folks reading LW also are - but might be ashamed to admit it!)

Quoth OrphanWilde:

Top-level comments should introduce arguments; responses should be responses to those arguments.
Upvote and downvote based on whether or not you find an argument convincing in the context in which it was raised. This means if it's a good argument against the argument it is responding to, not whether or not there's a good/obvious counterargument to it; if you have a good counterargument, raise it. If it's a convincing argument, and the counterargument is also convincing, upvote both. If both arguments are unconvincing, downvote both.
A single argument per comment would be ideal; as MixedNuts points out here, it's otherwise hard to distinguish between one good and one bad argument, which makes the upvoting/downvoting difficult to evaluate.
In general try to avoid color politics; try to discuss political issues, rather than political parties, wherever possible.

Let's try to stick to those rules - and maybe make some more if sorely needed.

Oh, and I think that the "Personal is Political" stuff like gender relations, etc also belongs here.

Quoth OrphanWilde:

Top-level comments should introduce arguments; responses should be responses to those arguments.
Upvote and downvote based on whether or not you find an argument convincing in the context in which it was raised. This means if it's a good argument against the argument it is responding to, not whether or not there's a good/obvious counterargument to it; if you have a good counterargument, raise it. If it's a convincing argument, and the counterargument is also convincing, upvote both. If both arguments are unconvincing, downvote both.
A single argument per comment would be ideal; as MixedNuts points out here, it's otherwise hard to distinguish between one good and one bad argument, which makes the upvoting/downvoting difficult to evaluate.
In general try to avoid color politics; try to discuss political issues, rather than political parties, wherever possible.

Let's try to stick to those rules - and maybe make some more if sorely needed.

Oh, and I think that the "Personal is Political" stuff like gender relations, etc also belongs here.

Question for Liberals/Leftists and Libertarians:

I'm from the US and of the libertarian persuasion, though not so propertarian as most US libertarians.

Liberals here seem to want to help the poor and less financially fortunate.

But it seems to me that the means selected to help them always tends to be a paternalistic welfare state - more power and control for the government. I think that's just bad market economics and political economics - the regulatory state tends to hamper production and destroy wealth, and the rich are much better able to navigate and manipulate the regulatory state. So it's just a bad prescription for the stated goal.

For the liberals, whatever happened to good old expropriation and redistribution of wealth as the leftist solution? Why not that instead of the paternalistic regulatory state?

The problem with being poor is you don't have money. Take money from A, and give it to B. I think there are decent arguments for this going back to Thomas Paine and Agrarian Justice, things that even a Bill Oreilly could get on board with (It was amusing and surprising to see Oreilly defending Alaska's redistribution of oil fees directly to Alaskan citizens - "It's our oil!" Ha! What a commie!).

I was watching William Buckley debate Milton Friedman on welfare policy, with Friedman in favor of negative income taxes (the problem with poverty is you don't have money), and Buckley making one paternalistic argument after another why you couldn't just give the poor money, arguing for a paternalistic regulatory state for those on state assistance.

It occurred to me that the difference between Buckley and Liberals was how many people they thought warranted this kind of paternalistic aid and interference, while Friedman much preferred to let people run their own lives.

For the libertarians, wouldn't you, like Friedman, prefer a basic income guarantee to the paternalistic regulatory state?

For the libertarians, wouldn't you, like Friedman, prefer a basic income guarantee to the paternalistic regulatory state?

Asked in this form, this is a request for collecting information about distribution of opinions in the form of a few self-filtered anecdotes. The data thus collected is completely useless, so it might be better to look for data collected elsewhere or by other means.

Suppose then that we do collect such data. In what way would it be useful for the purpose of a theoretical discussion? Opinions themselves may be hard to interpret: differe... (read more)

2blogospheroid14y

I am as libertarian as can be, once one is aware of existential risk. I prefer a basic income guarantee to a paternalistic regulatory state. I like the NIT for its simplicity, but am opposed to high income taxes. I prefer the georgist land tax. I believe that if the land were taxed well enough, people could not just hold it and make living expensive for other people. Almost everyone would have the option of going a distance and setting up something of their own over there. That is the taking. Now the spending. I believe that we should aim towards a meritocracy. So, most importantly, a strong minimal state providing justice, protection, primary and secondary education should be present. If you're hitting marginal contribution of zero over there and still have money left, move to the next item that can help. Basic research into intelligence and conscientiousness augmentation. Aim to make IQ85s into IQ 110s if possible. If, as a side effect, you can boost some already existing people to higher levels, that's lovely, but that is not the goal. The goal is to turn 80s and 85s into 110s and 115s. Basic research into happiness augmentation without affecting effectiveness. Aim to increase happiness set points across the board. If you're hitting marginal returns and still have money left, then try to institute a prize that will be given to firms that employ a large number of workers. The product of wages of the workers is a good proxy to try to aim towards. (This is actually quite hackable, but if done well, it does have the advantage of multiplying the prize amount, using dollar auction effects) After all these, if you still have money left, one can try the NIT or Morgan Warstler's variant

3TheOtherDave14y

I suppose I qualify as a liberal for purposes of this question. If you're asking whether I'd support this as a political platform, my answer is mostly no. If you're asking whether I'd support this as a way for the world to be, my answer is mostly yes. To say that perhaps more clearly... While I don't think a guaranteed minimum income addresses all problems related to poverty (as sixes_and_sevens points out below), I do think there are a number of poverty-related problems that we currently solve in ways far less sensible than a guaranteed minimum income. If I could wave my magic wand and replace the former with the latter in a politically sustainable way, I probably would. (I haven't looked into this at all carefully and would have to think much harder about the details if I actually had such a wand, but I'm sympathetic to the strategy.) OTOH, if I don't have a wand, but rather have to work through political mechanisms to implement such a policy change, I doubt I support it... it doesn't seem like a viable political move in my country.