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Epiphany comments on Call for Anonymous Narratives by LW Women and Question Proposals (AMA) - Less Wrong Discussion
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I'd like a policy change:
Due to the widespread elitism or appearance of elitism, I am very concerned. People in the outside world aren't going to make distinctions between a group of people who call themselves "elitists" for harmless reasons versus people who believe they're "better than others" and are therefore entitled to special treatment or to make exceptions to the rules for themselves. It's also a weird surprise because it's in direct conflict with the site's vision - to spread rationality. Spreading rationality necessarily means transmitting it to people who are not good at rational thought, because focusing on transmitting it to people who are already good at it does not qualify as "spreading" it.
Imagine going into a room full of strangers and announcing that you are an elitist. Does this strike no one else as socially inept? Yet here we are in public, and people are announcing to the world of strangers that we are elitists. I don't like being smeared as an "elitist" by these people, I know the world will see me as guilty by association. The rest of the world isn't known for being rational. If they see a group of people calling themselves "elitists" they won't stop to make distinctions. They'll just err on the side of caution by assuming you guys are a bunch of overbearing jerks. This is about as smart, in my view, as going back in time few hundred years and claiming to enjoy casting magic spells. It doesn't matter if you're referring to an RPG game, you just invited a witch hunt.
Maybe you guys figure anybody intelligent will agree with your attitude. No. It's a perfectly constructive use of one's intelligence to take measures to avoid committing social suicide. That this group allows itself to be associated with the term "elitism" - that nobody moderates those comments and that they're being voted up to the sky - is a public relations disaster waiting to happen. At first, it didn't even occur to me that the people here might not realize that. That's such a no brainer to me, I assumed you didn't care because you really do think you're better than them, so you can afford to provoke the outside world and just ignore their ire. Now, I am considering that the people on this website may just be socially inept enough to do that and not realize how crazy it looks to non-elitist intellectuals like me.
As I've said before, maintaining quality does not require you to wear a scary word that is used to mean "overbearing jerk". I think you guys need a no elitism policy which includes: A.) Not letting people behave in an abusive or insulting way toward people who may not have the same education or IQ. B.) Not smearing the organization by using the word "elitist" lightly to describe LessWrong. I don't want to associate myself with an elitist or "elitist" organization. The only reason I haven't quit already is because I still have a sense of possibility that you guys will eventually grok what an assassination you're launching against your reputations and I think that the good things about this group and the vision you're gathered around make it worth continuing to discuss the topic of elitism with you.
You're over-reacting to one comment, which made its point well despite using a word you disapprove of. It's not as though Less Wrong identifies itself to the world at large as elitist (although some people, and indeed some users here, may describe it that way).
Furthermore, a policy of "not using the word "elitist"" is completely orthogonal to a policy of "not being abusive to lower IQ people". What makes you think the latter is necessary?
(I accidentally misread Kindlys post, the response to his actual wording is in a comment below.)
Would you go into a room full of strangers and announce that you're an elitist? Have you ever tried talking about this with everyday people? Talking about intellectual differences, giftedness, elitism, etc. often triggers a bad reaction, even if you try to do it carefully. This is socially inept to an extreme. When the masses don't like something, they don't stop to make distinctions about it. If you guys aren't doing anything to prevent users from smearing the whole organization as "elitist" then all of you are going to be deemed guilty by association. There are people using their real names here - their IRL reputations may be effected by elitism or the appearance of elitism. Just as you shouldn't abuse a person by slandering them, you shouldn't abuse a group of people by smearing them all as elitists - unless they deserve that. That's why it's important - because people like me take offense to being labeled an "elitist", knowing what resentment that can provoke in the average Joe, and I don't appreciate being smeared this way with the rest of you.
Also, don't misquote my wording. What I said was that people shouldn't be let to smear LessWrong by using the word "elitism" lightly. That's different from banning it from use. I'm essentially saying "don't let them slander the group". Of course, if you guys really do think you're better than everyone else and that you should have special treatment and exceptions to rules, go ahead and use the word "elitist" to describe that, as it will give the rest of the world the right idea. I will definitely be leaving if that's what the group decides, though, and you'll be scaring off the other non elitist intellectuals and donations from anyone who isn't an intellectual elitist.
Can you stop using the word "elitist"? You can go on mentioning it, since part of your claim seems to be about where that word should and should not appear, but please stop using it.
I'm not sure what you're asking.
Use-mention distinction. Please stop using the word "elitism".
Sorry, I didn't mean to misquote you. When I said "a policy of "not using the word "elitist""" I meant it as shorthand for the second policy you suggested (the one under the letter B), not as a summary.
And I'm afraid you misunderstood my question. I didn't mean to ask why "Not letting people behave in an abusive or insulting way toward people who may not have the same education or IQ" is a good idea -- that's pretty much obvious. What my question was, what makes you think this needs to be an explicit policy?
(By the way, I would appreciate it if you didn't confuse my own point of view with the "Less Wrong point of view". If such a thing even exists, I'm not a spokesperson for it.)
Oh I misread your post. Okay. Now I am baffled as to why you don't seem to agree that it would be good to have a policy. Well here are a few reasons:
1.) If there's no formal policy against elitism, and there are a bunch of people creating the appearance of elitism on the site, that looks bad. It looks much better if we have it in writing that the people who run the site don't want elitism.
2.) It's obvious to you and me that that's a bad way to act, but it's not obvious to everybody. If a bunch of people create the appearance of elitism on a website, might it be because they are elitists? That was what I thought at first... I didn't think a group of people would be crazy enough to brand themselves as elitists unless they actually were elitists. I did think to question that perception, but it still seems like a valid question to ask whether the reason these people seem so willing to look like elitists might be a sign that they actually are.
3.) If a bunch of people create the appearance of elitism on a website, isn't that likely to draw elitists? I would think so. And if people are getting away with creating the appearance of elitism, that may encourage elitists who are attracted to this site from acting in an abusive manner. Having a policy may prevent that or encourage moderators to do something about it after the fact.
Sorry if the misinterpretation annoyed you.
There are two broad reasons why one might have such a policy.
First, if in fact it were a common tendency on Less Wrong to dismiss outsiders as inferior (based on education or IQ? I don't think this is necessary for elitism, but you seem to be focused on these) then the policy might be a step to help prevent this. I don't see such a tendency, and I think I'm more disgusted than average by people saying things like "If you have less than 130 IQ, you're not worth talking to". Do you have examples of people actually acting like this? Note that this is different from saying that people outside Less Wrong have lower standards for discussion.
Second, if Less Wrong appears to be "elitist", an "anti-elitist" formal policy might counter this appearance. I believe this is what you're suggesting. I don't think this is a good idea. First of all, I don't think it would work. For example, if I saw a forum's policy explicitly state "No racist comments will be condoned" then I would actually think racism is more of a problem than average on that forum.
Furthermore, I read Less Wrong because people here prefer not to say one thing to mean another, which is exactly what this is suggesting. I expect users here to notice the difference between a policy that does something, and one that puts up an appearance of doing something. I don't want a policy of the second kind.
Going into a room full of strangers and announcing I was a socialist, or an egalitarian, or a libertarian, or a conservative, etc. would be socially inept. In fact, announcing I was a human or a carbon-based lifeform or a biped would be socially inept too. It's nothing special about elitism.
Is "elitism" perhaps a particularly bad word in the US but not other parts of the world? For example I've always found the accusation of US politicians being "elitist" as mildly confusing, like something that just wouldn't happen in my countries political discourse.