Thanks for making the effort to try and understand. You've thrown one more variable into the equation - emotional energy. I don't know if you've considered how these other variables would affect things, but:
Other Variables Involved in Gifted Alienation
Ability to communicate is something that will increase or decrease frustration / alienation / misunderstanding, depending on whether it's low or high. Unfortunately, not all gifted people get the gift of communication, and gifts come in different sizes so they may not get enough of a gift in communication to compensate for the difficulty of communicating ideas and feelings that are as different as theirs.
Age of the person matters a lot. Supposedly, the speed at which you learn doesn't change, but if you're learning at say, twice the average speed, you'll be much further ahead of your age peers at 30 than at 20, and so on. The gap seems to have grown as I have aged (I'm in the ballpark of 30 myself). It has become harder and harder to find stimulating intelligent conversation. Make sure to value your sources of intelligent conversation, you may need them more later on.
Amount of intelligence. If your IQ is 130, you'll notice a difference between yourself and others but if it is over 160, you may feel like a complete alien. One interesting characteristic of the people I've met who have IQs in the profoundly gifted range is that they feel so very different that it's like being stranded on a planet full of aliens. It can be very stressful for them. I don't know what your IQ is, but it sounds to me like you can understand a little bit what this sort of problem would be like for them. You keep saying "need for cognition" but firstly, that's a trait that's more common to gifted people (it fuels the gift!) and not as common to non-gifted people. Secondly, have you ever been asked a lot of "why" questions by a little child and gotten burned out on answering them? Or can you imagine going a year without having a conversation that wasn't one-sided? These are the experiences that some of the very gifted people might have with "need for cognition". It's better if the person wants to know what you have to say, and compensates a little for the difficulty of communication, but it's not a substitute for having a conversation with an intellectual equal.
Also, understanding people's feelings is a lot more complicated than reading faces. If I make a sad face, why did I make a sad face? Is it because someone said something that hurt my ego, and I need a compliment, or is it that the person was trying to hurt my ego, which kicked me in a deeper place - the part of me that questions why I bother to make a difference when the world can be so nasty. I get this kind of misunderstanding a lot. They read my face right, if I show emotion at all (I frequently don't) but they interpret the wrong reasoning into it. People can be particularly stubborn in their interpretations. I can tell them "It's not my ego" and they will insist that it and ignore the real problem. I'm different enough that my explanations sometimes seem unlikely to people, and they disagree with me about my own feelings. I find it intolerable.
If you imagine for a moment that there's a wild variety of people here, all with different amounts of emotional energy, communication ability, different mental age gaps and different IQ gaps. Some of those people will be lucky, like yourself, and have a gap that's not too difficult to overcome considering the communication and emotional resources they have. Others will either have gaps that are much larger than yours, or won't have the same resources to compensate, or both.
Are gifted people more frequently depressed?
As far as whether gifted people are more frequently depressed, this really depends on the source that you read. A lot of things about gifted adults are not well-established. There's not nearly enough research on them, and a lot of published research findings are false. One source of confusion is that there are a lot of prejudiced myths about gifted adults (before Terman did his research, apparently people thought that gifted people were ugly, unhealthy and all kinds of things) so there are studies that refute these myths and do not tell the whole story, and some of the sources disagree on important things. I've read a lot of stuff about gifted adults (I'm a psychology enthusiast and that's my main psychology interest), and here's my take:
For people with IQs under 145, I'd bet that they do have pretty normal rates of depression. For people with IQs over 145, from what I've read, I'd bet that they have elevated rates of existential depression. Whether or not existential depression was lumped in with depression, or did not qualify as depression might be something that influenced the studies you read. For a citation, I will select "Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Adults". Here is an excerpt:
"There is relatively little inherent in being a gifted child or adult that makes them more prone to depression than others. Most often, it is a poor fit between the gifted person and the environment that creates the problems. A lack of understanding and support from teachers, peers, or family can precipitate very real problems of various kinds, including depression. Existential depression is an exception; it seems to emerge in most environments, though some circumstances prompt it more than others. Existential depression is particularly likely among the highly gifted, even though it is not a category of depression that is recognized in the DSM-IV-TR." (Page 133)
Can anything (like intellectual activities) compensate for unmet social needs?
No. If you want a source, I will refer to Mazlow. His hierarchy of needs clearly includes various social needs. Further, his take is that you need to have social needs met before you can actualize your potential. Trying to channel your potential into intellectual activities without having your social needs met is likely to be frustrating. A lot of people (possibly everyone who is not a sociopath?) experience purpose in relation to other humans. This post by Academian explains that experience. The gist of it is: When asking "What is the purpose of life" this question implies a "who" so you need to have agents to have purposes to in order to have a sense of purpose. I experience this need, myself. I need someone to be close to, to have a purpose to. Random strangers and donations are not enough. I am a social organism. I need to bond emotionally with others, to need others, and to be needed by them.
Someone I know with a very high IQ said one key reason he hasn't made anything of his potential is that he has to spend so much time trying to get his social needs met. This is a lot of work - it can be like rebuilding your social life after a move, except imagine that the social life you build never sticks. You'll be constantly rebuilding your social life over and over again. Some people in that range are lucky and meet someone that fulfills their social needs. Others rarely ever find an intellectual equal, let alone one who is compatible with them (even friendship requires a certain amount of compatibility - though this may not be very obvious to people who aren't really different). Some of them try marrying someone that's not an intellectual equal, but the people I know who have tried this struggle with severe depression due to it.
There unfortunately appears to be no substitute for having your social needs met. Therefore, I regard it as important for people who are significantly different (any meaning of different, including different due to having a high IQ) to be able to participate in a haven where they can interact with like minded others without being made to put up with alienation.
On NFC - NFC is moderately correlated with IQ, it's true. But personality traits turn out to be equally accurate predictors.
I'll also point out that the loose correlation between NFC and intelligence is an implicitly made assumption underlying the worry that the quality of posts at Lesswrong will deteriorate with the new user influx...if it were true that NFC has an extremely strong relationship with intelligence, unintelligent people would simply would not be interested in participating in the discussion on the site, and there would be nothing for the o...
Note: After writing this post, I realized there's a lot I need to learn about this subject. I've been thinking a lot about how I use the word "elitism" and what it meant to me. I was unaware that there are a large number of people who use the word to describe themselves and mean something totally different from the definition that I had. This resulted in my perception that people who were using the word to describe themselves were being socially inept. I now realize that it's not a matter of social ineptness, that it may be more of a matter of political sides. I also realized that mind-kill reactions may be influencing us here (myself included). So, now my goal is to make sure I understand both sides thoroughly to transcend these mind-kill reactions and explain to others how I accomplished this so that none of us has to have them. I think these sides can get along better. That is what I ultimately want - for the gifted population and the rest of the world to understand one another better, for the privileged and the disadvantaged to understand one another better, and for the tensions between those groups to be reduced so that we can work together effectively. I realize that this is not a simple undertaking, but this is a very important problem to me. I see this being an ongoing project in my life. If I don't seem to understand your point of view on this topic, please help me update. I want to understand it.
TLDR: OMG a bunch of people seem to want to use the word "elitist" to describe LessWrong but I know that this can provoke hatred. I don't want to be smeared as an elitist. I can't fathom why it would be necessary for us to call ourselves "elitists".
I have noticed a current of elitism on LessWrong. I know that not every person here is an elitist, but there are enough people here who seem to believe elitism is a good thing (13 upvotes!?) that it's worth addressing this conflict. In my experience, the word "elitism" is a triggering word - it's not something you can use easily without offending people. Acknowledging intellectual differences is a touchy subject also, very likely to invite accusations of elitism. From what I've seen, I'm convinced that using the word "elitism" casually is a mistake, and referring to intellectual differences incautiously is also risky.Here, I analyze the motives behind the use of the word elitism, make a suggestion for what the main conflict is, mention a possible solution, talk about whether the solution is elitist, what elitism really means, and what the consequences may be if we allow ourselves to be seen as elitists.
The theme I am seeing echoed throughout the threads where elitist comments surfaced is "We want quality" and "We want a challenging learning environment". I agree that quality goals and a challenging environment are necessary for refining rationality, but I disagree that elitism is needed.
I think the problem comes in at the point where we think about how challenging the environment should be. There's a conflict between the website's main vision: spreading rationality (detailed in: Rationality: Common Interest of Many Causes) and striving for the highest quality standards possible (detailed in Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism).If the discussions are geared for beginners, advanced people will not learn. If the discussions are geared for advanced people, beginners are frustrated. It's built into our brains. Psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, author of "Flow: The psychology of optimal experience" regards flow, the feeling of motivation and pleasure you get when you're appropriately challenged, to be the secret to happiness and he explains that if you aren't appropriately challenged, you're either going to feel bored or frustrated depending on whether the challenge is too small or too great for your ability level.Because our brains never stop rewarding and punishing us with flow, boredom and frustration, we strive for that appropriate challenge constantly. Because we're not all at the same ability level, we're not all going to flow during the same discussions. We can't expect this to change, and it's nobody's fault.This is a real conflict, but we don't have to choose between the elitist move of blocking everyone that's not at our level vs. the flow killing move of letting the challenge level in discussions decrease to the point where it results in everyone's apathy - we can solve this.Why bother to solve it? If your hope is to raise the sanity waterline, you cannot neglect those who are interested in rational thought but haven't yet gotten very far. Doing so would limit your impact to a small group, failing to make a dent in overall sanity. If you neglect the small group of advanced rationalists, then you've lost an important source of rational insights that people at every level might learn from and you will have failed to attract the few and precious teachers who will assist the beginners in developing further faster.And there is a solution; summarized in one paragraph: Make several areas divided by their level of difficulty. Advanced learners can learn in the advanced area, beginners in the beginner area. That way everyone learns. Not every advanced person is a teacher, but if you put a beginner area and an advanced area on the same site, some people from the advanced area will help get the beginners further. One-on-one teaching isn't the only option - advanced people might write articles for beginners and get through to thousands at once. They might write practice quizzes for them to do (not hard to implement from a web developer's perspective). There are other things. (I won't get into them here.)This brings me to another question: if LessWrong separates the learning levels, would the separation qualify as elitism?I think we can all agree that people don't learn well in classes that are too easy for them. If you want advanced people to improve, it's an absolute necessity to have an advanced area. I'm not questioning that. I'm questioning whether it qualifies under the definition of elitism:e·lit·ismnoun1. practice of or belief in rule by an elite.2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or favored group.(dictionary.com)Spreading rationality empowers people. If you wanted to take power over them, you'd horde it. By posting our rational insights in public, we share them. We are not hoarding them and demanding to be made rulers because of our power. We are giving them away and hoping they improve the world.Using rationality as a basis for rule makes no sense anyway. If you have a better map of the territory, people should update because you have a better map (assuming you overcome inferential distances). Forcing an update because you want to rule would only amount to an appeal to authority or coercion. That's not rational. If you show them a more complete map and they update, that isn't about you - you should be updating your map when the time comes, too. It's the territory that rules us all. You are only sharing your map.For the second definition, there are two pieces. "Consciousness of or pride in" and "select or favored group". I can tell you one thing for certain: if you form a group of intellectual elitists, they will not be considered "select or favored" by the general population. They will be treated as the scum on the bottom of scum's shoe.For that reason, any group of intellectual elitists will quickly become an oxymoron. First, they'll have to believe that they are "select and favored" when they are not, and perhaps justify this with "we are so deserving of being select and favored that no one can see it but us" (which may make them hopelessly unable to update). Second, the attitude of superiority is likely to provoke such anti-intellectual counter-prejudice that the resulting oppression could make them ineffectual. Powerless to get anywhere because they are so hated, their "superiority" will make them into second class citizens. You don't achieve elite status by being an intellectual elitist.In the event that LessWrong was considered "select" or "favored" by the outside population, would "consciousness" of that qualify the members as elitists? If you use the literal definition of "consciousness", you can claim a literal "yes" - but it would mean that simply acknowledging a (hypothetical) fact (independent market research surveys, we'll say) should be taken as automatic proof that you're an arrogant scumbag. That would be committing Yvain's "worst argument in the world", guilt by association. We can't assume that everyone who acknowledges popularity or excellence is guilty of wrongdoing.So let's ask this: Why does elitism have negative connotations? What does it REALLY mean when people call a group of intellectuals "elitists"?I think the answer to this is in Jane Elliot's brown eyes, blue eyes experiment. If you're not familiar with it, a school teacher named Jane Elliot, horrified by the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. decided to teach her class a lesson about prejudice. She divided the class into two groups - brown eyes and blue eyes. She told them things like brown eyed kids are smarter and harder-working than blue eyed kids. The children reacted dramatically:"When several of the brown-eyed kids who had problems reading went to their primer that morning, they whizzed through sentences""A smart blue-eyed girl, who had never had problems with her multiplication tables, started making all kinds of mistakes."
"During afternoon recess, the girl came running back to Room 10, sobbing. Three brown-eyed girls had ganged up on her, and one had hit her, warning, “You better apologize to us for getting in our way because we’re better than you are."When people complain of elitism, what they seem to be reacting to is a concern that feeling "better than others" will be used as an excuse for abuse - either via coercion, or by sabotaging their sense of self-worth and intellectual performance.The goal of LessWrong is to spread rationality in order to make a bigger difference in the world. This has nothing to do with abusing people. Just because some people with advanced abilities choose to use them as an excuse to abuse other people, it doesn't mean that anybody here has to do that. Just because some of us might have advanced abilities and are also aware of them does not mean we need to commit Yvain's "the worst argument in the world" by assuming the guilt that comes with elitism. We can reject this sort of thinking. If people tell you that you're an elitist because you want a challenging social environment to learn in, or because you want to make the project that is the LessWrong blog as high quality as it can be, you can refuse to be labeled guilty.Refusing to be guilty by association takes more work than accepting the status quo but what would happen if we allowed ourselves to be disrespected for challenging ourselves and striving for quality? If we agree with them, we're viewing positive character traits as part of a problem. That encourages people to shoot themselves in the foot - and they can point that same gun at all of humanity's potential, demanding that nobody seeks the challenging social environment they need to grow, that nobody sets any learning goals to strive for because quality standards are elitist. To allow a need for challenges and standards to be smeared as elitist will only hinder the spread of rationality.How many may forgo refining rationality because they worry it will make them look like an elitist?These are the reasons I choose to be non-abusive and to send a message to the world that non-abusive intellectuals exist.What do you think of this?