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gwern comments on Happy Ada Lovelace Day - Less Wrong Discussion

10 Post author: palladias 16 October 2012 09:42PM

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Comment author: gwern 17 October 2012 12:47:03AM 15 points [-]
Comment author: [deleted] 18 October 2012 06:55:32AM 3 points [-]

I completely agree with your implied meaning, but the linked article gave me pause:

Dorothy Stein, the first of Lovelace’s biographers with sufficient training to seriously assess Ada’s frequent proclamations of her own extraordinary mathematical genius, concludes that Lovelace was scarcely the prodigy she imagined herself to be, and struggled to grasp concepts that would be standard fare in a modern high school course in AP calculus.

Judging mathematical genius between separate centuries seems fundamentally flawed.

Comment author: gwern 18 October 2012 02:10:25PM 2 points [-]

Indeed, it is difficult (although of course that's a sword that cuts both ways: since AFAIK Lovelace's work lead to zero practical work, zero people building on it, and had zero influence on later mathematicians or engineers or logicians like Turing, and her claim to fame is solely our judgment of her genius and historical priority), but let's not exaggerate the difficulty: she wrote her program in 1843, and the AP exams began in 1955 or so (hard to find dates), so that's 112 years. Was the teaching of calculus so revolutionized during that span that Ada's "frequent proclamations of her own extraordinary mathematical genius" (taking Stein at face value that Ada was something of a braggart) are consistent with her difficulty?

Comment author: [deleted] 18 October 2012 05:42:43PM 2 points [-]

the AP exams began in 1955 or so (hard to find dates), so that's 112 years.

Except the quote was:

that would be standard fare in a modern high school course in AP calculus.

So that's some more years, but I don't think it's really germane. I'm not saying that the time gap proves she's a genius; rather, the time gap makes it harder to ascertain.

On another not-imo-germane-to-the-discussion-note, mathematics education was more or less overhauled during the post-war period in many countries. Mathematics education as an academic discipline, I believe, was an innovation of Klein's that fell out of his work in geometry.

Comment author: sixes_and_sevens 17 October 2012 09:49:53AM *  2 points [-]

She's not the hero we deserve, but she's the one we need right now.

EDIT: Well, that's the last time I make a Batman joke.

Comment author: [deleted] 17 October 2012 06:28:22PM *  9 points [-]

Rear Admiral Grace Hopper is much a more inspiring computer scientist, imho.

The most important thing I’ve accomplished, other than building the compiler, is training young people. They come to me, you know, and say, “Do you think we can do this?” I say, “Try it.” And I back ‘em up. They need that. I keep track of them as they get older and I stir ‘em up at intervals so they don’t forget to take chances.

Comment author: Risto_Saarelma 18 October 2012 06:20:51AM 3 points [-]

When Grace Hopper gets mentioned, there tends to be an uncomfortable silence about COBOL. COBOL is actually quite interesting, since it was a serious effort to make programming more accessible and a commercial success. It's also universally reviled by people who do programming for fun.

Beyond the gender stereotype of women being bad at tech, there is also the stereotype that women don't do technical tinkering for fun. It's a bit unfortunate that Hopper's most famous accomplishment ended up becoming the shorthand for programming as dreary, unfun 9-to-5 bureaucratic grind.

Comment author: [deleted] 17 October 2012 04:20:55PM *  6 points [-]

Ehhh ... ok, you do realize not having a better mascot is weak evidence in favour of positions on talent distribution and performance considered sexist right?

Comment author: maia 18 October 2012 03:57:03AM -1 points [-]

But better mascots do exist.

Comment author: [deleted] 18 October 2012 07:25:09PM *  3 points [-]

So why aren't they used? Or rather name three.

Comment author: maia 19 October 2012 12:06:03AM 2 points [-]

Emmy Noether? Grace Hopper (maybe, as discussed above)? Rosalind Franklin?

It's true that it's evidence that there are so few, but given the historical status of women in academia, it is quite weak.

Comment author: J_Taylor 19 October 2012 04:17:17AM 1 point [-]

They probably aren't used because "First Computer Programmer" sounds cooler than "Valuable Contributor to Field X".

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 17 October 2012 05:58:23PM *  3 points [-]

Yeah, because instead of a false example we could use a real example, such as a woman who wrote the first compiler... but then, most people (including our target group) would just ask: "what is a compiler?"

Therefore, a false hero may be politically preferable. Until the truth becomes known, and then we either have to accept that this strategy backfired, or make the truth forever our enemy. Which happens often when politics comes first.