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lucidian comments on LW Women: LW Online - Less Wrong Discussion
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Hmm, so I'm thinking about smileys and exclamation points now. I don't think they just demonstrate friendliness - I think they also connote femininity. I used to use them all the time on IRC, until I realized that the only people who did so were female, or were guys who struck me as more feminine as a result. I didn't want to be conspicuously feminine on IRC, so I stopped using smileys/exclamation points there.
It never bothered me when other people didn't use smileys/exclamations. But when I stopped using them on IRC, everything I wrote sounded cold or rude. I felt like I should put the smileys in to assure people I was happy and having a good time (just as I always smile in person so that people will know I'm enjoying myself). But no one else was using them, and they didn't strike me as unfriendly, so I decided to stop using them.
Until I saw this comment, I had forgotten that I had adjusted myself in this way! In light of this, I may have to take back some of my earlier comments, as it really does seem like culturally enforced gender differences are getting in the way here, and that LW has little tolerance for people who sound feminine (perhaps because of an association between femininity and irrationality, which I'll admit to being guilty of myself).
Do other people associate smileys and exclamations with feminity, or is it just me?
(EDIT: Now I'm thinking that smileys vs. lack thereof might also be a formality thing. I also limit the amount of smileys/exclamations that I put in work emails, because they seem overly friendly/informal for a professional context. LW feels more like a professional environment than a social gathering to me, I think.)
Apparently! I started talking to someone about this and he just told me this exact thing independently of you. He said men can only use smileys with women because it's flirting. (??) Which is weird to me because I've met men who are WAY more animated than I am in meatspace. Do they also not use exclamation marks? I don't think I'd be able chat with them online if they didn't; my brain would explode.
But actually, I think this whole issue comes up because we subconsciously communicate a lot of those "I still like you! I'm not hostile! I'm still having a good time!" messages in meatspace through non-verbal things like smiles and pats and vocal tone, etc. So people that resist adding those into their text think they're being asked to do something extra that they never do, but I think, they do do it and just don't realize it because it comes more naturally.
I agree with you, but:
I might suspect that for many people on Less Wrong this does not come as naturally as it does to most people :P
You know, I was just about to make a poll about this! But I'm on an iPad, so that's a bad idea.
Do you think a lot of LW people are bad at those cues in real life? Do you think they actively resent having to be good at them in real life as well? I figured LW-ers would recognize the utility of these messages out in meatspace, but it might have just not crossed their mind.
I'd rather not speculate about "a lot of LW people," since I am just one person and I'm not making observations about myself, per se.
But I have at least one friend in real life who struggles with social cues and I think she'd be pretty excited to find an environment where she didn't have to deal with them. So I'd imagine there are people with different perspectives on it, some of them actively against it, some passively supportive of the current setup, and some unaware that there's a decision being made, and I have no idea how to distinguish how many of each. I guess a poll would be appropriate.
I sort of assumed that even people who struggle with social cues would understand their instrumental value, at least on an intellectual level. But there's definitely a typical mind component in that thinking because I know nothing about the social lives of most LW-ers or the average LW-er and how much they interact with humans in meatspace and how they feel about it.
So I thought more about this poll and realized I would need one of those "strongly agree -- strongly disagree" matrices to get any good results. Which is an even heftier undertaking.
Meta: an excellent example of how a post can look friendly without reducing information content (or even using smileys!)
I'm hugely more likely to use smileys when talking to someone I find attractive online
Because you are trying to be extra-friendly and non-threatening, or because you're trying to use smileys to directly indicate your attraction/interest?
I'm both emotionally more inclined to be smiling and thus typing smileys when chatting with someone I'm attracted to AND occasionally consciously aware of smileys and that I might want to toss one in to be extra-friendly. I don't think it's a known notion that smileys are flirtatious or about attraction so I don't really use them that way, though maybe I should.
Nono, I don't think you should! I think this is actually where that "smileys are flirty" impression originated.
...
^_^
Okay, after threatening, I had a go at hacking up a smiley gender detector for lesswrong irc.
Looking at the counts of smileys-per-message by nick, no obvious pattern.
Looking at averages:
male avg 0.015764359871 female avg 0.0194180023583
The dataset I'm using is so male dominated I don't think the results can be particularly meaningful.
Also, the fact that LW itself isn't smiley friendly. An interesting project would be to gather data from the real life facebook pages of both males and females on LW and see if a discrepancy shows up there. People would have to volunteer their facebooks for you to look at which might cause a bit of a selection effect. (The less trusting/interpersonal types might be less likely to both volunteer their fb, and to use smileys)
The reason I say this, is because I severely limit my smiley usage on LW.
One user who's part of the female dataset has already reported cutting out the smileys deliberately. As I say, I don't put much faith in the results.
I did consider scraping lesswrong.com for data, but a) I wasn't sure of the etiquette b) I don't have a list of female users (maybe I can get them from the survey?) c) it's a lot more coding.
How are you determining gender of users?
The number of female users is so small I just hardcoded known female nicks.
As I say, I don't think the results are particularly meaningful.
My associations... Well, first I check if the smiley significantly clarifies the tone of the comment. If so, I take that as the explanation.
Beyond that, I associate youth, extroversion, being hip to tech, and emotional openness.
This last has a tendency to be associated as feminine, though not particularly by me.
RE: smileys in formal settings. I grew up speaking Russian, which is a language that has a formal-you pronoun, and I spent most of my school life feeling really weird writing "you" to adults in emails, because it felt too friendly and rude and presumptuous. Badly-raised child! I generally don't use smileys in professional emails unless the other person has used them first or I really want to make a nerdy joke. But sometimes that policy feels weird if your co-workers in meatspace are fun, joking, informal people. Why would you limit yourself with people if you know you don't have to?
Also, I will add this link to a relevant post you might find interesting, mostly because I didn't notice this until the author pointed it out but also because I'm proud that I managed to hunt it down. (It is unfortunately not that well-written and touches on a lot of mind-killer topics.)
we must create a smiley based gender detector! for science!
I am male, don't associate smileys with femininity, and often use them in most text conversations and also posts online if I would smile in meatspace when saying what I'm typing (which usually is not the case in work emails). It can occasionally put me on edge if I type with someone who does not use them, in a conversation where I would expect them to smile in meatspace.