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Jack comments on Politics Discussion Thread February 2013 - Less Wrong Discussion

1 Post author: OrphanWilde 06 February 2013 09:33PM

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Comment author: Jack 07 February 2013 10:35:18PM *  3 points [-]

A quick talking point is that colonial Rhodesia used to be practically a first-world country.

Cite?

(Is now zimbabwe).

Which is definitely not a democracy.

The fact that only rich imperialist powers happen to be progressive democracies isn't much evidence;

It isn't true that "only rich imperialist powers are liberal democracies". What is a "progressive democracy"?

if democracy fails in 9 cases out of 10,

Does democracy fail in 9 cases out of 10?

Mind you, this is not an argument for tearing down democracy

Sure. Though I am rather interested in hearing from the people who think we should tear down democracies.

merely that it could be the case that setting up a new democracy is a bad idea (see afganistan, iraq, etc).

Those examples certainly apply to invading a country and then telling it to become a democracy. It's less obvious that, say, a Saudi or Iranian citizen should oppose domestic democratizing efforts. And there are older examples that suggest a conqueror willing commit sufficient resources can start a stable democracy (at least given certain populations).

Further, if you accept the cynical take, realizing that you live in a brainwashing theocracy ought to affect your intuitions about what looks like "doing a pretty good job". Have you taken this into account?

Quite. But I still need some evidence that we haven't always been at war with Eastasia and that Eurasia isn't our eternally loyal ally. Romanticism about colonial Africa isn't doing the trick.

Comment author: Nornagest 08 February 2013 05:41:12AM *  3 points [-]

A quick talking point is that colonial Rhodesia used to be practically a first-world country.

Cite?

I know very little about the history of that part of the world, but the GDP graph for Zimbabwe has quite an unusual shape. (Graph shows per-capita GDP in 2000 dollars, with aggregate data for all of sub-Saharan Africa displayed for comparison.) On the other hand, "practically a first-world country" sounds like an exaggeration at best: as the graph shows, GDP per capita was actually below that of sub-Saharan Africa in general until the first of those spikes, and fell back again after.

For a very different story, see Botswana, which Wikipedia informs me gained its independence from Britain in 1966.