Okay. I think I see what is happening. The whole issue get's weirdly skewed by divine command theory, which is so simple it is hard to see the distinction and which implies a very particular formula for a normative theory. Let me outline the position:
Metaethics: Divine Command theory. In answer to the question "What is morality?" they answer "the will/decree of God".
Normative Ethics: In answer to the question "Why is murder immoral?" they provide a proof that God decrees murder to be immoral, say, a justification for the Bible as the word of God and a citation of the Ten Commandments. Non-judeo-christian divine command theorists would say something else. Some normative theories under the umbrella of divine command theory could even be consequentialist, "God told me in a dream to maximize preference satisfaction." These answers assume divine command theory but they're still normative theory.
Now in a real life debate with a divine command theorist they may emphasize the "God said so part" instead of the "here is where he said it" part. But that's just pragmatics: you don't care about the normative proof until you share the meta-ethic so it is reasonable for a divine command theorists to skip straight to the major point of contention.
In the case of divine command deontology the "non-answer" issue is pretty much entirely about the meta-ethical assumptions and not the actual normative theory. So I can see why you were emphasizing the fact that deontology is logically independent of any particular meta-ethical framework.
It might be less confusing to just emphasize that "deontology" isn't a particular normative theory-- just a class of normative theory determined by a particular feature (just like consequentialism) and that there is nothing necessarily mysterious or magical about that feature; that that association is due to a particular sort of deontological normative theory which is popular among non-philosophers, a theory which assumes a stupid meta-ethics even though there is no need for deontologists to embrace that meta-ethics.
To summarize: I'm not sure that you've correctly identified the conventional line between normative ethics and meta-ethics, but I can see why the context of divine command theory makes the question "why is murder wrong?" seem like a meta-ethical one. When I said you were right in spirit I meant that I agreed that people were strawmaning deontology but disagreed as to the nature of the error. I don't think it's that "why is murder wrong?" isn't a normative question. Rather, it's that people assume deontology refers to a particular kind of deontology which assume an unhelpful and uninteresting metaethics and this leads that brand of deontology to be unable to given interesting answers to "why" questions.
Any of that make sense?
Any of that make sense?
Yes, and I don't think we have any further disagreement. Thanks for the interesting discussion.
I think there’s a confusion in our discussions of deontology and consequentialism. I’m writing this post to try to clear up that confusion. First let me say that this post is not about any territorial facts. The issue here is how we use the philosophical terms of art ‘consequentialism’ and ‘deontology’.
The confusion is often stated thusly: “deontological theories are full of injunctions like ‘do not kill’, but they generally provide no (or no interesting) explanations for these injunctions.” There is of course an equivalently confused, though much less common, complaint about consequentialism.
This is confused because the term ‘deontology’ in philosophical jargon picks out a normative ethical theory, while the question ‘how do we know that it is wrong to kill?’ is not a normative but a meta-ethical question. Similarly, consequentialism contains in itself no explanation for why pleasure or utility are morally good, or why consequences should matter to morality at all. Nor does consequentialism/deontology make any claims about how we know moral facts (if there are any). That is also a meta-ethical question.
Some consequentialists and deontologists are also moral realists. Some are not. Some believe in divine commands, some are hedonists. Consequentialists and deontologists in practice always also subscribe to some meta-ethical theory which purports to explain the value of consequences or the source of injunctions. But consequentialism and deontology as such do not. In order to avoid strawmaning either the consequentialist or the deontologist, it’s important to either discuss the comprehensive views of particular ethicists, or to carefully leave aside meta-ethical issues.
This Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article provides a helpful overview of the issues in the consequentialist-deontologist debate, and is careful to distinguish between ethical and meta-ethical concerns.
SEP article on Deontology