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DanielLC comments on Open thread, February 15-28, 2013 - Less Wrong Discussion

5 Post author: David_Gerard 15 February 2013 11:17PM

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Comment author: DanielLC 16 February 2013 08:05:50AM 7 points [-]

Would this gross example of irrationality be tolerated in other professions?

What gross example of irrationality? The vast majority of people with headaches don't have anything to worry about.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 18 February 2013 03:35:01PM 3 points [-]

The question is whether "people with headaches" is the right reference class. If the headache is unusually severe or persistent, it makes sense to look deeper. Also, a doctor can ask for details about the headache before prescribing the expensive tests.

Comment author: DanielLC 20 February 2013 05:16:10AM 0 points [-]

More precisely, the question is whether or not the right reference class is one in which cancer tests are worth while. The headaches would have to be very unusually severe to get enough evidence.

Also, a doctor can ask for details about the headache before prescribing the expensive tests.

It was never mentioned whether or not the doctor asked for details. It's also possible that none of those reference classes are worth looking into, and she'd need headaches and something else.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 February 2013 10:38:25PM 0 points [-]

Cancer isn't the only solvable problem which could get ignored if headaches are handled as a minor problem which will go away on their own.

Comment author: DanielLC 20 February 2013 11:50:08PM 0 points [-]

Yeah, but the other ones also get ignored if you assume it's cancer. To my knowledge, they have to be individually tested for. If none is worth testing for individually, it's best to ignore the headaches.

Comment author: [deleted] 16 February 2013 01:42:42PM *  0 points [-]

“The vast majority” != “All”. What's wrong with “you most likely have nothing to worry about, but I suggest doing this exam the off-chance that you do”? You've got to multiply the probability by the disutility, and the result can be large enough to worry about even if the probability is small. (Yes, down that way Pascal's mugging lies, but still.)

EDIT: Okay, given the replies to this comment I'm going to Aumann my estimate of the cost of tests for rare diseases upwards by a couple of orders of magnitude. Retracted.

Comment author: DanielLC 16 February 2013 08:13:14PM 6 points [-]

I'm pretty sure that, in this case, the probability is smaller than the disutility is large. Getting tested for cancer doesn't come cheap.

Comment author: ChristianKl 17 February 2013 06:13:19PM *  3 points [-]

Doctors get taught to practice evidence-based medicine. There's a lack of clinical trials that show that you can increase life span by routinically giving people who suffer from headaches brain scans.

If I understand the argument right, then doctors are basically irrational because the favor empirical results from trials over trying to think through the problem on a intellectual level?

Comment author: Kawoomba 17 February 2013 06:44:43PM 2 points [-]

What's wrong with “you most likely have nothing to worry about, but I suggest doing this exam the off-chance that you do”?

MONNAY.

You've got to multiply the probability by the disutility, and the result can be large enough to worry about even if the probability is small.

The question is, whose utility?

Comment author: beoShaffer 17 February 2013 01:03:34AM 2 points [-]

There's also the problem of false positives. Treatments for rare diseases are often expensive and/or carry serious side effects.

Comment author: [deleted] 17 February 2013 01:09:30AM 1 point [-]

I was thinking of diagnostics, not treatment, though from DanielLC's reply I guess I had underestimated the cost of that, too.

Comment author: ChristianKl 17 February 2013 06:13:46PM 2 points [-]

If you start diagnosing and find false positives than you are usually going to treat them.