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Pablo_Stafforini comments on Need some psychology advice - Less Wrong Discussion

7 Post author: Kenoubi 27 February 2013 05:03PM

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Comment author: Pablo_Stafforini 27 February 2013 08:44:05PM *  4 points [-]

Assuming both of those are true, CBT isn't be about denying that. The next step would be to ask "why is that bad?" and "exactly how bad is it?" Eventually, if you do it in a precise structured manner, you'll find some irrational thoughts hidden away somewhere (for example, "if I'm physically unattractive I'll never find romantic love" may be one irrational thought, which is easily countered by pointing out that lots of unattractive people are married).

I don't want to sound overly negative, but why assume that an honest answer to those questions will make you feel better, rather than worse? People who are deceived about themselves typically suffer from illusory superiority, overestimating their positive qualities. So why think that a therapy that proceeds by correcting these false perceptions will make people feel better about themselves?

The example you mention about romantic love is quite telling. Unattractive people have a much harder time finding romantic partners . And the partners they do find tend themselves to be unattractive. (The issue of physical attractiveness is of course just one example. There are many other cognitions underlying depression and anxiety which may also be rooted in solid evidence.)

All of this is described in the Feeling Good Handbook, which you should be able to find a free pdf of if you can't afford it.

Thanks, I have a pdf of that book, which I intend to read partly on the basis of your recommendation (even though I don't suffer from depression).

Comment author: jooyous 27 February 2013 09:35:31PM *  10 points [-]

But why assume that an honest answer to those questions will make you feel better, rather than worse?

I think it's not that an honest answer will make you feel better. It's that a detailed honest answer is more likely to help you find tools for improving your situation, while a generic honest answer will make you feel bad and very little else. It's really just general steps for solving any problem.

Unattractive people have a much harder time finding romantic partners.

Much harder doesn't mean impossible! How much harder is it? How many people that look [a certain way] have partners and how many don't? Where did the ones that do have partners find their partner? Maybe you could look there. What other personality traits did they develop that helped them succeed at dating while looking [that way]? Maybe you could work on those!

And the partners they do find tend themselves to be unattractive.

This statement really requires data. Unattractive to whom? Probably not to them.

Comment author: PECOS-9 27 February 2013 10:48:18PM 9 points [-]

I don't want to sound overly negative, but why assume that an honest answer to those questions will make you feel better, rather than worse?

It's not an assumption; four weeks of bibliotherapy in the form of reading Feeling Good and doing the exercises has been shown in experiments to be superior to a placebo book for treating depression (75% of patients no longer qualified for DSM criteria of major depressive disorder afterwards), and the improvements were sustained at 3-month and 3-year followup.

Of course, you could then argue that the book doesn't actually make you evaluate your situation honestly and is just mindless positive thinking, but I don't think that'd be a fair assessment of the book.

The example you mention about romantic love is quite telling. Unattractive people have a much harder time finding romantic partners . And the partners they do find tend themselves to be unattractive. (The issue of physical attractiveness is of course just one example. There are many other cognitions underlying depression and anxiety which may also be rooted in solid evidence.)

Sure, but my example was "if I'm physically unattractive I'll never find romantic love" not " "if I'm physically unattractive I'll have a much harder time finding romantic love."

Comment author: [deleted] 28 February 2013 05:52:33PM 1 point [-]

People who are deceived about themselves typically suffer from illusory superiority, overestimating their positive qualities.

Yes, typically. Not always.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 27 February 2013 09:27:52PM 1 point [-]

If you're suffering from illusory superiority, are you likely to be pursuing CBT to counter depression?

Comment author: Pablo_Stafforini 27 February 2013 09:38:51PM 0 points [-]

Almost everyone suffers from illusory superiority. If CBT doesn't work for people in this category, that is in itself a strong argument against CBT.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 27 February 2013 10:35:06PM 3 points [-]

It seems like you are saying that depressed people suffer from illusory superiority - overoptimism - in respect to the foci of their depression.

This doesn't seem right.

Comment author: jooyous 27 February 2013 11:04:43PM 3 points [-]

Sometimes depressed people think they're too smart for everything and everyone and that's why they're depressed. And because they're too smart to ever be happy, then there's nothing out there that can help them. Brains get pretty warped sometimes. =[

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 28 February 2013 04:07:55AM 0 points [-]

But wouldn't bursting their bubble on this matter then help them in the medium and long runs?

Comment author: jooyous 28 February 2013 04:11:53AM *  1 point [-]

Yes, definitely! But if they're smart, then they're really good at arguing, which means they're really good at explaining why you're wrong. So it's really really hard. =[

Comment author: ChristianKl 06 March 2013 12:51:41AM 0 points [-]

I don't want to sound overly negative, but why assume that an honest answer to those questions will make you feel better, rather than worse? People who are deceived about themselves typically suffer from illusory superiority, overestimating their positive qualities. So why think that a therapy that proceeds by correcting these false perceptions will make people feel better about themselves?

If I want to believe that I'm beautiful when I'm not beautiful, then I won't put myself in situation that might challenge my belief about my own beauty. This creates psychological stress.

People don't suffer because they have nothing but they suffer because they want something that they don't get.