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Desrtopa comments on [Link] Diversity and Academic Open Mindedness - Less Wrong Discussion

3 Post author: GLaDOS 04 April 2013 12:31PM

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Comment author: Desrtopa 04 April 2013 07:45:47PM 4 points [-]

I'll point out that a major component of why universities seek "diversity" is not because of an expected value in a broad assortment of perspectives, but to ensure that parts of the population aren't locked out of the academic system in a self perpetuating cycle. Affirmative action supporters generally look forward to a day when the groups favored by affirmative action policies will be able to break the cycle and compete evenly with other applicants purely on the basis of qualifications. The policies are more for the sake of the minorities, who the universities have nothing against and would like to see able to compete on even footing, than for the universities themselves. It doesn't follow that this sort of favorable treatment should extend to a diversity of ideas that the universities actually do have something against.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 04 April 2013 08:17:32PM 5 points [-]

Some previously despised minority groups, such as Asian immigrants, have not only broken the self-perpetuating cycle, they've gone so far out of its orbit that their population in universities are actually being actively limited by these policies.

Given that affirmative action is by some accounts responsible for higher university drop-out rates in target minorities, are you sure (I'm presuming you support the argument you're forwarding, my apologies if you're merely presenting it as an alternative line of argument raised by those who support the policies) that such policies aren't merely reinforcing the self-perpetuating cycle?

Comment author: Desrtopa 04 April 2013 08:45:22PM 9 points [-]

If you're presuming that I support the policies as practiced, you would be incorrect. I think that the argument has some merits in theory, but the implementation is not well devised to realize them.

That said, while I don't doubt that the rate of university dropouts among target minorities is higher than it would be without affirmative action, I would be interested and surprised if this led to a net decrease in university graduations among target minorities, which would be an allegation I haven't heard before.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 05 April 2013 05:17:39AM 3 points [-]

I would be interested and surprised if this led to a net decrease in university graduations among target minorities, which would be an allegation I haven't heard before.

The theory is that due to affirmative action target minorities get mismatched with schools. Thus they wind in in tougher schools then they should be and thus drop out.

Comment author: Desrtopa 05 April 2013 12:21:52PM 2 points [-]

I get the concept, but as I said, I would be surprised if the actual result is a lower level of college graduates in target minorities.

I have no doubt that the system does push in some such underqualified students. But it also does push in candidates who grow into their environment, who become quite good students. It's not necessarily easy to tell in advance which will be which.

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 05 April 2013 10:52:02PM 2 points [-]

I get the concept, but as I said, I would be surprised if the actual result is a lower level of college graduates in target minorities.

Well, the dropout rate among target minorities is certainly higher.

Comment author: mare-of-night 06 April 2013 11:39:45PM 2 points [-]

As I understand it, the change in peoples' view of Asian immigrants is partly because the immigrants have changed. A greater proportion of recent Asian immigrants to the US (compared with early waves of Asian immigrants) were of high socioeconomic status in their home country, and are coming for professional careers or to go to school, rather than to be factory or other low-status workers.

(And depending on how you define caught in the cycle, the descendants of early Asian immigrants might still be - even if race isn't against them anymore (which it might be in some cases - I don't know), social mobility is still difficult.)

Comment author: ikrase 07 April 2013 04:06:06AM 5 points [-]

Also worth noting that social stigma and material/academic success often coexist.

Comment author: buybuydandavis 04 April 2013 09:34:30PM *  0 points [-]

They could compete evenly now, if by evenly we mean objective standards for winning the competition.

It seems that "compete evenly" means instead "win just as often", and the rules of the game will include deliberate biases until that occurs. In fact, it will include such biases even when they win more often, as is the case with women in higher education.

Comment author: Desrtopa 05 April 2013 12:26:25AM 4 points [-]

They could compete evenly now, if by evenly we mean objective standards for winning the competition.

Not necessarily. The intended-case scenario for affirmative action recipients are individuals with aptitude just as high as other candidates, but with lower performance due to lower prior opportunities (lower quality education, less ability to afford tutors and SAT prep, etc.) who quickly catch up to the more advantaged students.

Even a best-case implementation of affirmative action would probably end up going to a significant number of students who turned out not to be such, but the existing-case system does turn out such students.