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buybuydandavis comments on Orwell and fictional evidence for dictatorship stability - Less Wrong Discussion

16 Post author: Stuart_Armstrong 24 May 2013 12:19PM

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Comment author: buybuydandavis 25 May 2013 09:33:36AM *  7 points [-]

Isn't that line about a foot stomping on a human face forever a quote from O'Brian? If so, it's the kind of thing he'd like to believe,

No, I don't think he'd like to believe that, and that's one of the major points of the book.

The horror of the book is twofold.

Everyone could be against the system, and wish it weren't so, but still be efficient and effective cogs in the machine. The machine does not require willing cogs. O'Brien seems more resigned than a true believer, but he obediently plays his part as a cog.

The other horror is the ability to take up WInston like a piece of meat, grind him up like hamburger, and mold him into whatever shape they wanted. Make him believe whatever they wanted, make him love or hate whatever they wanted.

There is a tradition in a lot of fiction to glorify the idea that people can't be broken, that they can hold one small piece of themselves inviolable. Winston thought he could hold on and not betray Julia. Wrong.

Another example of such glorification was Bigger Thomas saying "you can't make me do nothing but die". Guess again. Your'e a meat machine with buttons, and if we press the right buttons in the right order, you'll beg and plead to be given a chance to please us, and you'll mean it. You'll want to please us.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 May 2013 05:19:23AM *  1 point [-]

The other horror is the ability to take up WInston like a piece of meat, grind him up like hamburger, and mold him into whatever shape they wanted.

If you apply enough pressure to a tool - well, the tool won't do anything you want. It might do something. It might just break.

No one ever said dictatorships end cleanly. The question is how far you can bend a real society made of real humans before you compromise its functional integrity.

Comment author: MugaSofer 28 May 2013 08:35:30PM -2 points [-]

Everyone could be against the system, and wish it weren't so, but still be efficient and effective cogs in the machine. The machine does not require willing cogs. O'Brien seems more resigned than a true believer, but he obediently plays his part as a cog.

On the other hand, this can also be applied optimistically, to the human tendency towards corruption, abuse of power etc.